Duh yourself, Do you understand that you CANNOT just throw the tiller over ?

The words immediately making contact with the windward boat are critical in this. This means that the windward boat MUST have time to respond to the luff.

If the sequence of events is Luff, crunch; then the leeward boat is wrong as there was not time for the windward boat to avoid the actions of the leaward boat.

If the sequence is Luff, <a bit of time, and this time depends on the class of boat>, windward boat fails to take avoiding action, then windward boat is wrong.

First of all, in the diagram shown it does not appear that either boat has the capacity to make the mark without tacking.

The windward boat may manage to pinch around the mark with luck... but judging by the angle, it's more than likely that neither boat will lay. (If these were lasers the angles would be more believable)

If this is the case, and if I were the leeward boat, the first thing that I would do is try to pinch the windward boat off. Because it is very likely that neither one of us would lay the windward mark, I'd hope that by forcing the windward boat to tack (to avoid backwinding/making contact) I would not only allow myself more clear air but also (more importantly) have created a hole in which I could make a doubletack and lay the mark as well.

The biggest tactical advantage to this approach is in controlling the situation. If both boats have to tack to lay the mark, then why not use my rights as the leeward boat to control when the windward boat makes their tack. Once they tack, I can too... in fact, if things work out really well, then I may even be able to position myself (on port tack) to windward and on their hip, and prevent them from tacking (because they cannot "tack too close") until I do (obviously, it isn't legal to take them past proper course)

As long as my maneuver (tacking to lay the mark, then tacking back) did not interefere in any way with the red boat/force them to alter course to avoid collision (once they're on starboard again), or even just alter course at all, then I would be in the clear.

Anyway.


The point is: there are many approaches that can be taken, and as many rules can apply as the sailors involved want to argue about. It's probably more likely that the leeward boat would get rolled and have to eat shitty air before tacking to make the layline anyway.

The question posed was a very interesting one, and although, perhaps, my analysis (which I think makes sense given my knowledge of the rules, but may also appear questionable seeing as I have not directly quoted the rule book) may seem troublesome in a catamaran... it would work very well in dinghies.

Just to clarify... avoiding contact; It is just as illegal to negate the aversion of boat on boat contact as it is to be the fouling port tacker/windward barger... etc. etc.

Ok - lets take a step back. "slinging the tiller over" is probably a bad term - I am assuming we are talking about rounding up somewhat to make a mark and not a crash tack although the same argument would still apply.

Now - it is agreed - Rule 16 says the right-of-way boat must give the other room to keep clear when it changes course

but.....

Rule 12 covers overlapping boats and says the windward boat must "keep clear". The definition of "keep clear" specifically permits the leeward boat to change course as it sees fit without making immediate contact - thus planting the onus squarely on the windward boat to maintain enough "room" that it can do such.

Now rule 14 is important when the overlap is established (initially giving room to keep clear if applicable) however this is irrelevant to our debate.

The devil is in the wording of the rules and in this case it's very clear - windward boat is obligated to maintain enough room between the two boats such that the leeward boat can change course as it sees fit without making immediate contact.

If there is contact then the windward boat was clearly not keeping clear and should be appropriately penalized. The leeward boat might be in rule 14 trouble however as specified in 14.b it shall not be penalized under this rule unless there is contact that causes damage. As for what constitutes damage - I'll leave that for another debate.

I have won several protests in exactly this situation.

Cheers,

Tiger Mike

True but the original poster thought he might have been able to pinch the mark which made the diagram inaccurate. We have also become a little sidetracked to more windward/leeward discussion



Sound advice - would take some serious skills to get the tacking thing right on a cat and as somebody else as mentioned we are assuming there is no other traffic to contend with - others laying the mark on starboard would complicate things no end!



Its been a long day but I think you are saying that hitting other boats is as bad as port not giving way to starboard and this is essentially true. The "but" is that as per rule 14.b, the right of way boat (or that entitled to room) shall not be penalized under that rule if there is no damage.

Cheers,

Tiger Mike

Exactly, the slinging the tiller implies that its a rash and very quick thing, this is not allowed, the



is totally different, there is a controled action taking place here and with the "rounding up somewhat" then the other boat has the time and to keep clear, if they fail to do this, they get binned.

In this situation, the leaward boat has the rights to luff but (my words) "in a controlled manner, and so that the windward boat can keep clear. " If there is a protest, it is down to the paries to pursuade the protest Ctte that either they acted in a manner that allowed the windward boat the time to keep clear (remember my comments earlier about what that might be depending on the boat), or that the leaward boat was a cowboy throwing the tiller all over the place and making it impossible for the other boat to keep clear.

Would this include the case where the starboard-tack boat, clear-ahead, tacks to clear "A mark", but goes into irons....coming out of irons on the same starboard-tack (now sailing away and past "A mark") then sailing into and hitting the boat (previously clear astern) who was giving room (sailing past and to windward) and tacked while the the other boat was in irons?

If he is clear ahead then the windward/leeward rule does not apply. Once the boat is head to wind it is required to keep clear of all other boats on both port and starboard. Once he returns to starboard tack his is required to initially give the other boats room to keep clear (ie he can't just tack in front of somebody). The other boat is obligated to immediately take avoiding action once the starboard tack boats rights have been established.

Tiger Mike

According to Tacticat rules engine:
- As both boats where approaching the mark in the same tack and were overlapped, the moment one of them touched 2BL rule 18 was ON and windward boat was marked as owing room to leeward boat. Tacticat does not make assumptions about who can or cannot lay the mark unless it is very clear.
- If leeward (robi) boat pinched, and did it smoothly, it would most probably end stopped, in irons (even for a laser). But if a collision happened, the windward boat would be found guilty.
- If leeward (robi) boat pinched hard and hit the windward boat he would be at fault, not giving room or time to windward boat to escape.
- The moment one of both boats starts the tack rule 18 is OFF and rulings are as if there were no buoy.
- After the two boats have tacked, back on close-hauled angle, rule 18 is again ON and windward boat ows room.

This is one of the EASY cases. Things get much worse when boats approach a windward mark on different tack!

aestela
Tacticat Admin

This all happened within the 2 BL circle....does that alter your position above?

If there was no overlap when they entered the 2bl circle then AFAIK buoy room does not apply.

Cheers,
Tiger Mike