When did this happen? I thought that, at least in the U.S., anybody can sail in the trials and the winner goes to the Olympics.
Is that not so any more? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

This year the actual US trials in San Diego are being restricted to US citizen sailors only...so teams from Canada, Mex. etc cannot race against the US teams in the trials. They will be holding the US Nationals back to back and those are open to citizens form other countries, but it is only a 3 day event, so teams from the east coast will likely not bother to come out to San Diego for such a short event.

Mike.

I think the U.S. trials for all the classes are always open only to U.S. sailors.

Yes, to all US Sailors with "world ranking" unless I mis-interpretted the new rules.

Tom,, here is what I wrote:




Glenn and I know each other from the TornadoCat e-mail list, and we have discussed the topic somewhat earlier (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TornadoCat/ please join if you still are interested in the Tornado!). What my comment meant is that the Tornado class today is what the ITA want it to be. You described the status as I also see it. A few stragglers and some fleets in europe. I certainly dont think it is healthy, but it is what the ITA want it to be. Here is section 2 copied from the class constitution:

2. Objects
The objects of the ITA are to promote and further the interests of the Tornado Class throughout the world including:
a). To maintain the one-design character of the Tornado Catamaran
b). To co-ordinate and manage the affairs of the class.
c). To make recommendations on the control of the class to the International Sailing Federation (ISAF).
d). To encourage and co-ordinate national and international competition in the class.
e). To maintain Olympic Status.

The focus on the narrow top end of the class combined with Marstrøms building techniques (cost of building) is whats killing the class in my opinion. If you look in the yearbook, the decline in new boats start in the late 80s when Gøran Marstrøm began using pre-pregs and autoclaves, making the entry cost much higher and clogging up the stream of affordable used boats avaliable. I could have a nice T fleet going over here, but the available used boats are not within the budget constraints for pure hobbyists with families. If I want to build a fleet, I will go with F-16s and F-18s.

Campaigns costs are ridiculous, but that is a concern for the top end of the class. Problem is that there is not much left for the local level and weekend warriors.

We have sailed Tornados the last 7 years, gone to regattas further south in Europe etc. We have had a great time and lots of fun, but we stay on the boat becouse we enjoy the feel of it so much and the cameraderie shared with the 7-10 other participants at our scandinavian championship. There are no other reason for someone not going for an olympic berth to stay on the Tornado.
Until the Tornado is dropped from the Olympics, this is what the class will continue to be. Afterwards, it will either die completely, or go the route of the Soling, FD and others. First thing I would like to see when dropped is the banning of pre-preg construction and possibly allow aramids.
I hope this put some perspective to my comment to Glenn earlier.

To get back on topic, I think having a min. weight is uneccesary, even for the Bejing event. After all, everybody going there except the Chinesee team have to qualify. If some teams want to go on an extreme diet, it should be a case for their medical support and coach to make them do the right thing.
I am a fan of the US trials system, even if it is a bit hard on the teams going abroad qualifying the nation. Why would US Sailing demand that sailors who want to compete have an ISAF ranking? I think your current system is very good, giving everybody a chance to participate, even youngsters who borrow an old beater.

Well, if that is the case, at this point we would only have four boats at the U.S. Trials for the Tornado Class. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

True, I will go back and see what I mis-read along the way.

As far as I understand it, the restriction for only for non-US teams.

I believe the confusion below may relate to the selection requirement of having world ranking...doesn't mean you can't race at the trials, but you do need a certain world ranking to be selected for the games...lots of countries require this. Usually, you can't just be the only boat in the country and expect to go to the games...you need to prove your skill at international events by attaining a certain level of results.

While I understand the need of each country to determine their own selection criteria, I just feel it's a shame they are limiting an already small North American fleet (12-15 boats actively racing) by telling 3 boats from Canada they cannot participate in the trials. Only one of those 3 boats competes with the top guys (Johannson/Stittle). Impact on leader points could be averted by doing what they now do in the North American Championship event...let any team race, but restrict trophies to the best NA finishers. This could be done in the trials...making for a more competitive/larger fleet which can only improve the US fleet experience.

Restricting does not serve to grow a fleet or "blood" young players. Shortsighted and self serving.

I agree.

This is what I interpreted the wrong way from the US Sailing site. http://www.ussailing.org/olympics/2007/rankingsystems.asp which just states that there are three required events leading up to the trials. Or at least it seems to indicate that these are prerequisite to competing in the trials.

I think all this states is you must race the listed events to be eligible for selection to the US Olympic team. I see nothing here about these events are requirements to attend the trials event in San Diego....am I missing something?

Mike.

Hi... It is probably best that you have all the information before everyone jumps up and down..below I have just cut and paste the ballot.. i will come back when I have more time.

135kg does not effect any of the current sailors competing in the events it has effect on.

It is just to stop me or anyone else sailing with a child at the next olympics!!!!
Its to encourage fair sailing.
Regards
Bundy


2007 CLASS RULES BALLOT ITEM

CLASS RULES, SECTION C - CONDITIONS FOR RACING
Ballot Item #1 - Minimum Crew Weight
EXISTING RULE:

-NONE-



PROPOSED RULE:

ADD C.2.2 CREW WEIGHT

For ISAF Grade W, C1 (Europe), World Cup, the Olympic Regatta and ISAF Olympic Qualification events, the minimum total crew weight shall be 135kg.
a). Weighing of all crews before the event is required.
b). Weighing of crews during or after the event is optional at the discretion of the organizing authority, as posted in the Notice of Race and Sailing Instructions.
c). Crew substitutions for the purpose of complying with the weight limit are not allowed.
d). Each crew member shall be weighed individually while wearing dry shorts or swimwear.
e). Crews failing to comply with the weight limit before the event or prior to a day’s racing shall be required to carry corrector weight equal to the difference between their crew weight and 135kg for the duration of the event.
f). Crews failing to comply with the weight limit after a day's racing may be subject to disqualification from any race sailed on the day of the violation.


AMEND C.6.2(b)

The total corrector weight for the boat shall not exceed 5kg. This shall apply to boats first registered after February 1977. The total corrector weight for crews shall be as prescribed in class rule C.2.2.e.


REASONS IN-FAVOR: (submitted by Darren Bundock – edited by Mike Grandfield)
The proposed rule would protect the class from crew weight manipulation at major championships held at very light air venues.
- The proposed rule will not impact teams that race locally or at regional events.
- However, the ITA Championship Rules and wind limits are not in effect at the Olympic Regatta or ISAF Olympic Qualification events - races will be started in as little as 3-4 knots o breeze.
- At Qingdao, last August there was only one day of racing of when I needed a crew at all. In these conditions, a lightweight helmsmen sailing with 45kg kid on the front of the boat could have an insurmountable advantage.
- If this were to happen, it would undermine the integrity of the Olympic qualification process.

135Kg is a fair minimum weight
- It is a lower crew weight than has been proven to be competitive across the 6-25knot wind range.
- If a very light team starts racing regularly at the top events, they will gain weight to become competitive.
- if a very light local team occasionally comes to a top event, the corrector weight would not be likely to be an important factor in their performance.

Setting minimum crew weights is not unusual in catamaran classes
- Low crew weight can have a major effect on boat speed in light air.
- The Tornado and A Class are the only two catamaran classes I can think of without a minimum crew weight.



REASONS AGAINST: (submitted by: Norman and Gary Chu – USA 836, – edited by Mike Grandfield)
The class rules should not be changed for the Olympic Regatta, a regatta that does not adhere to the class rules.
Setting a minimum crew weight of discriminates against teams under 135kg:
- the Tornado is an 'Open' class, so at the Olympic Regatta crews can be 2 men, 2 women, or 1 man and 1 woman
- this rule would impose an unfair restriction on women crews or open crews; and on crews from countries who culturally are small
- the RRS do not permit corrector weight to be carried on a person's body; it must be on the boat
- the proposed rule would equalize the conditions in light air, but does not equalize the conditions in heavy air

We are better off leaving the class as it is
- The class naturally selects the crews who are good in all conditions, and now everyone has the right to choose a crew which is light or heavy.
- It has always been accepted that in heavy wind, heavy crews have an advantage, why can’t it be accepted that in light winds, light crews have an advantage
- No one is discriminated against when everyone is given the same opportunity to sail light or heavy.

Right now there aren't really any women sailing Tornados... why further discourage/prevent them from sailing entirely? How could two women possibly aspire to sail Tornados when there isn't any way that they could compete in a World Championship or an Olympics?

Even when Jamie and I sail together we weigh 280lbs on the highest end. And this is when both of us are more than 5-10 pounds over our base weights. There's no way that I could "gain more weight to become competitive".

I don't fully disagree with Bundy, but 135kg just isn't cutting it for those of us who aren't macho men.

sarahlala

How would you solve the problem presented by China?1

US Sailing want to win a medal.... any way they can! Why would they not put together a China olympic team of their top helm and a child or midget.

Remember the olympics are not about teams that agree to sail together... its about a country's representative?

What is an alternative solution to the looming problem.

If the fear is about someone sailing with a kid to cut down weight, why not inserting a minium age (ex. 16 years old) instead of minimum weight for the regattas mentioned in the ballot? If the international Tornado class does not want to discriminate Asian sailors, they have to live with the fact that people from these countries in average are smaller and lighter than those of the established western countries. And yes, those will enjoy a weight advantage in light air events like Qingdao will be. The London olympics will favour a different type of sailor for sure. Anyhow I think ISAF is highly aware and concerned to offer equal chances for the different nations and would probably not imply a rule discriminating certain countries purely based on their physics.

I've only seen one Chinese team competing in the past few months. They might be light, but they're not midgets or children. I feel that it would be unlikely that China would waste their time equipping & prepping this team only to send a different one.

I understand the issue presented by having the Olympics in Qingdao, but this proposed rule applies to more than that one event. What about "ISAF Grade W, C1 (Europe), World Cup... ...and ISAF Olympic Qualification events". There are very few Tornado events in North America... now I can't even attend my own US trials? I can't go to Worlds? Correct me if I'm wrong, but this rule change is more than temporary... right?

There are so many people on this forum discussing the fate of the Tornado class and it's possible weight limit who have never even sailed the boat, let alone competed within the class. I mean, I'm not saying my opinion is any better, I'm a novice to the class... but I do think that many of us who are participating in this discussion have no concept of the level of competition that the Tornado fleet is at. Nor do we have any real gauge as to what trouble the weight problem has posed in the past, or how this proposed rule change will affect the future of the class.

How many times have you gone to a regatta and had the locals say, "This is really not the usual weather we have this time of year"?

20 bucks it blows like stink in China at the Olympics.

I'll take that bet! This'll be fun! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mark, you do realize that Sara is our Youth U.S. Sailing Multihull Youth Champion - right? Do you really think she should be excluded? I really don't see a "looming problem"; The wind hardly blew in the last Olympics - why were things different then? Do you feel like the best teams did poorly?

EVERY single day we go out and race on the water there is a large degree of variability - it's why most of us keep coming back.