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Sail Material #257025
02/05/13 03:11 PM
02/05/13 03:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline OP
veteran
F-18 5150  Offline OP
veteran
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
Dear F18 sailors,

The F18 World Council is trying to change the sailcloth list in order to limit the choices to the most expensive and least available cloths just to satisfy a couple of large manufacturers (all members of the Technical Comity) desire to try and defend their market position.

The members of the World Council already voted against this new cloth list during the last December WC meeting but James Baeckler and Don Findlay are trying to change it once again...

Let me explain you why this restricted cloth list is not in favor of the F18 class and the sailors:

3 mil laminate is a pure non sense, the strength of the cloth should not come from the film (plastic) but from the yarns.

You don't get a stronger or longer lasting sail just by adding more plastic to the material. The fibers are the bulk of the strength and as such you should be aiming to encourage better fibre/film ratios. For example the sails of the big boats going all around the world (Imoca 60, Multi 50...) are all using 1,5mil laminates. 100% of the sails used during the last Volvo Ocean Race and the winning sails of the Vendée Globe had not any film but only yarns (fibers) with the 3DI. Durability is the main concern of these offshore sailors. Everyone is trying to get rid of the plastic.

It make absolutely no sense to use a thick material (3mil), it is less flexible while you fold it and makes more wrinkles. Check the window material (which is made of 4 or 5 mil laminate) it is the part of the sail which get damaged the most quickly... All the cloth manufacturers can confirm it.

If the reason is cost, the price of a laminate cloth is directly linked with it’s weight, DPI (Denier Per square Inch) from 5 to 15 on the fabric listed on the cloth list and the thickness of the film (1,5 to 3mil on the fabric listed on the cloth list). 3mil cloth is around 10% more expensive than 1,5mil. For example the new cloth list is banning all the Polyester laminate (Dimension Polyant PX05 1,5 mil, PX 10 1,5 mil, PX 15 1,5 mil...) which are 30% cheaper than any Pentex laminates. Is it in the interest of the class ?? It is nevertheless against the wish of the class to reduce the cost...

Concerning the Polyester spinnaker fabric, the Polyester is much more stable than the nylon which make the shape of the kite lasting longer. If the sailors are careful and do not rip them, the polyester spinnaker is performing longer than a Nylon one.

In conclusion the members of the Technical Comity who all have commercial interest (Peter Vink from Performance Sails Nacra, Gregg Goodal from Goodal Sails AHPC, Pablo Soldano from Ullman Sails Hobie Cat), are doing everything to harm SAIL INNOVATION which is clearly against the principle of the free market economy and not in the interest of the class.

We should stop banning things but going sailing.

Please vote against this new cloth list which is against the interest of the sailors !

Thank you

ALEX UDIN


Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257034
02/05/13 05:23 PM
02/05/13 05:23 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
C2 Mike Offline
enthusiast
C2 Mike  Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 337
Victoria, Australia
I understand the gist of your post but the conflict you allege with the manufacturers makes no sense. To my knowledge, none of those on the technical committee are sail cloth manufacturers, more they buy the raw product and manufacture sails from them. To me, it would be in all their interests to look at materials and techniques which either lower the cost, increase the durability of sails or both.

As for the permitted materials list, I'm fine with it and do think it should err on the side of permission unless there is a clear and over riding case for no. Things like short supply, prohibitive cost and/or sort lifespan should all be considered. One such example would be if a manufacturer developed a sail that blew the competition out of the water however cost a bomb and lasted just more than 1 regatta.

Michael

Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257037
02/05/13 05:52 PM
02/05/13 05:52 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
old hand
macca  Offline
old hand
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
The newly proposed list has removed a lot of the cheaper cloths that were on there and now you have less choice and the ones on the list are at least 10% more expensive than the ones just removed.

The real issue is that the big three have all done their sails in 3.0mil laminate fabric. Some others have used 1.5 mil laminate (with more fiber and less film). The 1.5 mil sails are fast and lasting just as long as the 3mil sails because they have more of he strong stuff (fiber) and less of the cheap **** film. But the big three sailmakers don't want to go and develop a set of competitive sails in 1.5mil so the easiest way to sort it is to ban the 1.5 cloth... It takes a lot of work to make change from one cloth type to another, it's not as simple as just making the same shape with a new cloth, it behaves differently and as such if they achieve a ban on 1.5mil cloth it forces those currently using 1.5 to begin development all over again, hence removing them as a competitor and making life easy for the big guys again... Sounds pessimistic I know, but that's the unfortunate reality.

Of greater concern here is that the class world council has already voted on the cloth list at the last AGM and it was decided to not change the list, but the technical committee (made up of the big three sailmakers) has decided to try again to sneak a cloth change through the rules.... It's like a naughty child being told they can't have a cookie, but they keep trying to steal one when you turn your back..


________________________
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Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257046
02/06/13 06:29 AM
02/06/13 06:29 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 108
F
franck Offline
member
franck  Offline
member
F
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 108
One year ago Mr Mac Pherson, Mr Udin and others said and wrote that paint on the hull was only for economic purpose and to permit little manufacturer to survive, and it wasn't for an technical advantage.

Mr Udin admit last december on Mr Vanzulli site (http://tinyurl.com/abjagjm) , that gel coat was dead weight so you can have stiffer hull using paint.

Mr Udin's words:
"The gelcoat doesn´t makes the boat stronger, is dead weight, so we decided to use paint and reinforce the laminate schedule giving us a better use of the class rules in the benefit of the final sailor that will receive a more stiffer and stronger boat"

So do not forget, that those people are struggling first for their own business.

Same players shoot again with sail material

Phantom is a great and fast boat.
But what is the interest to win when you're boat is faster than the one next you ?

F18 was created by the french MNA.
In 1999, french MNA official: Pierre Charles Barraud and Olivier Bovyn wrote that F18 was created for: "limit the cost by limiting material and using standart product."

As you can see Mr Udin and Mc Pherson admit that 3 mil laminate is the standart.
Of course 1,5 mil are lighter and so have more performance for the boat.
And may be (may be only) they are lasting as long as 3 mil. ones.
As for the paint Mr Udin and Mr Mc Pherson may hide something here.


Today french F18 sailors are still fast and the most numerous.
So the french fleet is very sensitive for every change in F18.

F18 are not high tech. F18 class is not A class or C class.
Mr Udin and Mc Pherson do no understand that. That is a pitty.


The spirit of F18 is to have the more similar boat, that permit to race in real time, no rating.
Too long daggerboard, paint on hull and now thin sail is the path to create 2 F18 fleet.
Sailors skill is the game value. The result of Billy Besson and Jeremie Lagarrigue in the last LA world, without training, on a MK2 is a great lesson and hope for F18 future.





Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257048
02/06/13 07:31 AM
02/06/13 07:31 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
old hand
macca  Offline
old hand
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
Franck,
As you know I have minimal respect for your position on technical matters, what makes you a dangerous contributor to this class is that you seem to think you have a grasp of these matters...

gelcoat is a deadweight in comparison to paint. Both substances are designed to provide a surface coating for the hulls. Both have essentially the same friction qualities (gelcoat is actually shown to have lower friction than paint, so therefore is advantaged). The function qualities are essentially equal. Thats why there is no advantage in paint, and yes, its cheaper for us to build in this method. We have decided to use the weight saved by using paint to built a stiffer and stronger boat. This means that it will last longer and that is what we as customers should all desire!!! A quality product that will stand the test of time. If you dont want class members to be able to buy a quality, long lasting boat then I suggest that you review your participation in this class.

As for sail cloth:- Show me someone with a set of 1.5mil sails that is unhappy with the longevity??? how about we ask the hardest man I know on sails and equipment, a man with a reputation for breaking the toughest built boats and sails, a man who has more miles on beach cats than anyone else I know.... And guess what... he is FRENCH. Yvan Bourgnon. Oh, and he has had a set of 1.5 mil sails for years and they are still going strong.

After such hard usage its performing just fine. So why change it?

1.5 mil sail cloth is not a new thing in the class, it has been used from the very first day of introducing a cloth list for this class, and sails have been made from it for many years.

If its not broken, why change it??

1.5mil cloth is cheaper than 3.0mil cloth, by around 10% so why is the tech committe trying to force more expensive cloth on us customers?




________________________
http://aus300.blogspot.com
Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257052
02/06/13 08:34 AM
02/06/13 08:34 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 108
F
franck Offline
member
franck  Offline
member
F
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 108
Andrew, I understand you're a bit nervous.

Can you provide test (UV, mechanic, abrasion...) to confirm what you write ?
Low tech people, as I am, need some serious stuff to believe you now.
Sales representative one hand argumentation are not serious enough.

Why 1,5 mil the limit. 1 mil or 0,75 could be ok ?
More seriously 1,5 mil. are lighter than 3 mil. sails. That is a performance bonus for the boat.
Weight in the high of the boat is very important.
You're not agree, with that technical matter ?

Plastic weight is like gelcoat weight, that is dead weight.
You're not agree, with that technical matter ?

150 kg boat are cheaper than 180 kg because they use less material.
But they are no more F18.

Most of the F18 fleet is gel coated and with 3 mil. sails.
And the interest is to have the more similar boats on the starting line.

Some do not need faster boat to be in the top ten ;-)
They're simply better sailors.

Last edited by franck; 02/06/13 08:34 AM.
Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257054
02/06/13 08:52 AM
02/06/13 08:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
old hand
macca  Offline
old hand
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
Franck,
you have possibly the most incoherent arguments I have ever come across.

I believe that the sky is blue, you will argue against that for the sake of arguing...

Im done with wasting my time on you. good luck with your little cruusade. I can tell you one thing: its not going to end like you want, just like every other case in recent class history.



________________________
http://aus300.blogspot.com
Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257058
02/06/13 09:05 AM
02/06/13 09:05 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 927
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline
old hand
samc99us  Offline
old hand
S
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 927
Solomon's Island, MD
Do you know how capitalism works? Limiting sail options and manufacturers simply drives costs UP for the sailors. This has been proven over and over again. Just go look at the N20 class.


Scorpion F18
Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257059
02/06/13 09:15 AM
02/06/13 09:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
old hand
macca  Offline
old hand
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
Exactly!!


________________________
http://aus300.blogspot.com
Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257062
02/06/13 09:25 AM
02/06/13 09:25 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 108
F
franck Offline
member
franck  Offline
member
F
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 108
Hi Sam,

F18 is not capitalism stuff. It has been created in a sovietic country: La France.

Under the watch of a government sport agency the french sailing MNA: la Fédération Française de Voile.

I know it's hard to believe smile But that make sense with the genuine purpose of F18.

The cost of F18 is increasing much more because of hole in the rule (length of daggerboard, height of the hull), or the rule not apply strictly like allow carbon in daggerboard than limiting the thickness of the sails.
Don't you think so ?

Here the gain is mainly a performance bonus, lighter sails is really faster.

Actually F18 is not responding to free market mechanism: more offer does not mean cheaper boat.
At the start only 3 F18 model: Mattia, Tiger and Hawk and they were half the price of 2013 F18.

A contrario, less rule like C class or A class or AC72 does not make cheap boat.

Re: Sail Material [Re: franck] #257065
02/06/13 09:45 AM
02/06/13 09:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 32
Just Sail Offline
newbie
Just Sail  Offline
newbie
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 32
So we have a chance to have sails that are
1 Lighter
2 Faster
3 of equal strength
4 of equal durability
5 less cost

And the sail cloth has been on the "list" for a long time. Suddenly someone makes a sail out of it and we need to kill it now!

I don't understand the issue here it sounds like win win.

Sails are temporary


Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257066
02/06/13 09:50 AM
02/06/13 09:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
old hand
macca  Offline
old hand
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
Never let logic get in the way of a mornic decision though!!!

thats why we end up in this mess again.


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Re: Sail Material [Re: Just Sail] #257073
02/06/13 10:13 AM
02/06/13 10:13 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 108
F
franck Offline
member
franck  Offline
member
F
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 108
Originally Posted by Just Sail
So we have a chance to have sails that are
1 Lighter
2 Faster
3 of equal strength
4 of equal durability
5 less cost

And the sail cloth has been on the "list" for a long time. Suddenly someone makes a sail out of it and we need to kill it now!

I don't understand the issue here it sounds like win win.

Sails are temporary



Lighter that is obvious. So the boat is faster, but you're no more in F18 spirit.
What is the interest to have a faster F18 on the the start line ?
You want to be in front of the F18 fleet, I suggest you to improve your sailing skill.
That is the genuine F18 spirit and the key of the success of this formula.

Equal durability and less cost that is only Andrew and Alex words.
I ask Andrew, who is a great technician, to show us tests (UV, mechanic, abrasion).
I wait to see that 1,5 mil. offer the same protection than 3 mil.

It was the same argumentation for paint. Alex and Andrew claim it was for economical purpose only, and one year later Alex admit that gelcoat is dead weight and using paint allow stiffer platform.
You can believe sales representative to defend their interests more than yours.

The same kind of question was for the diameter of wire shroud. 3 mm was ok and faster but they broke after 6/8 month use and you need to change them once a year. 4 mm is now the rule and you can keep them for many years. There less business so less mess wink

Last edited by franck; 02/06/13 10:15 AM.
Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257074
02/06/13 10:23 AM
02/06/13 10:23 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 32
Just Sail Offline
newbie
Just Sail  Offline
newbie
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 32
This same stuff is was why I got out of sailing lasers.

If it has been on a "list" for a long time, the time to protest was when it went on the list not when a manufacturer was smart enough to use it.

You are saying that a sail was made to the rules and is better so we need to change the rules. Perhaps its time for others to advance as well...after all its on the "list"

This is worse than what the Laser class does.

Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257076
02/06/13 10:27 AM
02/06/13 10:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 108
F
franck Offline
member
franck  Offline
member
F
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 108
Who can prove that 1,5 mil are better ?

Re: Sail Material [Re: franck] #257077
02/06/13 10:39 AM
02/06/13 10:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 32
Just Sail Offline
newbie
Just Sail  Offline
newbie
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 32
No one needs to prove it better its on the "LIST" so its a choice we can make. If you like 3 mil buy 3 mil if some else likes 1.5 they can sail with that.

I have 3 Mil and will buy the same again. But if its on the LIST it should be ok to use.


Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257078
02/06/13 10:56 AM
02/06/13 10:56 AM
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 108
F
franck Offline
member
franck  Offline
member
F
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 108
1,5 mil. is a performance bonus, the sail are lighter, durability is the key factor: kleenex sails are not in F18 way.
Andrew write that 1,5 mil. = 3 mil. for durability.
I ask him to prove it.

Using 1,5 mil. material is cheaper (Alex Udin write that), but his sails (using 1,5 mil. ?) are as expensive as others...

The key point is to have very close F18 on the start line, thin sails like paint on the hull are true performance bonus.
No sport interest to have a F18 faster than the one next to you on the starting line.
The genuine purpose of F18 is to get as similar boats as possible.

If the rule process goes to its target, grandfathering would be ok, no problem about that, I think.

Re: Sail Material [Re: franck] #257080
02/06/13 11:06 AM
02/06/13 11:06 AM
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 32
Just Sail Offline
newbie
Just Sail  Offline
newbie
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 32
All the same as in SMOD

Re: Sail Material [Re: F-18 5150] #257086
02/06/13 02:16 PM
02/06/13 02:16 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 98
N
NacramanUK Offline
journeyman
NacramanUK  Offline
journeyman
N
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 98
Section of ACTUAL final minutes relating to sail cloth from:

International Formula 18 Catamaran Association.
Paris Council meeting.
17, Rue henri Bocquillon, Paris 75015
Saturday 15th December 2012 at 09h30.
Final Minutes

9.Paint and Cloth list adoption :

Paint list :
It was agreed that there is little chance of policing the Paint List and so no point in it being in the Class Rules. The meeting agreed to the removal of the Paint List from the August 2012 DRAFT Rules.

Cloth list :
The Cloth List was subject to considerable debate.

The Technical Committee Chair pointed out that many of these cloths were no longer made or used and that was one reason for shortening the list, the others being the desire of Council over the years to have heavy long lasting cloths and that 3.0mil cloth would have the same sailing characteristics and so adhere better to the Guiding Principles of the Class.

The meeting decided to keep the March 2010 List in force, but asked Findlay to write to the main cloth makers within seven days and ask them which of their cloths they thought would be available worldwide for the next two years, which would give long lasting life, and at a competitive price and keep to the Class Guiding principles. When this information was to hand, then a new list could be presented to Council.
The Technical Committee were asked to establish a clear protocol for changing of rules or even cloths.
The Technical committee will work to define a set of mechanical characteristics for the cloth makers to produce fit for purpose sailcloth.
The characteristics to define for main and Jib are:
• minimum of DPI,
• minimum film thicknes,
• minimum weight,
• fabric from rolls with constant construction.
The characteristic to define for Spinnaker (nylon or polyester) is :
• minimum weight.
The characteristics selected will ensure optimum performance for :
• at least 2 years for main sail,
• at least 1 year for Jib and spinnaker.

For developments purpose, it is critical that in one country, a new cloth material that may fit with class requirement will be examined by the Technical Committee which will reply within 30 days.

The Council agreed that long term stability is requested with class rules while keeping the possibility to review the fabrics from the cloth list ensuring value for money to the sailors.

Re: Sail Material [Re: Just Sail] #257133
02/07/13 08:54 AM
02/07/13 08:54 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Originally Posted by Just Sail
All the same as in SMOD


is a box-rule F18 cheaper than a SMOD Wildcat?

I was under the impression that box-rule/formula class structure would allow for cheaper and more durable boats because of the flexibility of multiple manufacturers and materials?


Jay

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