Forum Index |  Albums |  Classified Ads |  Catamarans For Sale |  Calendar |  Submit Events
Announcements
New Discussions
With These Great Madden Mobile Tips
by MMOaknfl. 12/15/17 02:30 AM
Introducing Rocket League
by MMOaknfl. 12/15/17 02:28 AM
Adding a Jib to a Mossie
by Gary Fleming. 12/07/17 11:29 PM
F101 finally in production
by Jake. 12/05/17 06:49 PM
Tradewinds Regatta?
by samc99us. 12/05/17 04:30 PM
Easy way to really learn the Racing Rules
by Mike Fahle. 11/28/17 07:30 AM
Dynema trap lines diameter?
by mmadge. 11/25/17 08:10 AM
foiling chasing UFO
by northsea junkie. 11/23/17 03:12 AM
New Mystere 4.3 in Central Florida
by Mike Fahle. 11/22/17 04:46 PM
--Advertisement--
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate This Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
#199823 - 01/02/10 09:07 PM Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: Capt_Cardiac]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 531
FasterDamnit Offline
addict
FasterDamnit  Offline
addict

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 531
Lake Murray SC
Originally Posted by Capt_Cardiac
maybe its been mentioned but does anyone know what kind of speed these boats are generating? is this a 15-20-30kt race we are going to see? i know, i know it depends on the wind but does anyone have any details


BOR90 has hit 30's in 10-15 and possibly 40's.


Race cheap, race faster, Damnit!

E-Scow
24' ULDB

18HT hulls plus Gcat 5.7 rig = 18GT!
-- Have You Seen This? --
#199825 - 01/03/10 06:25 AM Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: FasterDamnit]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 246
Baltic Offline
enthusiast
Baltic  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 246
Kiel, Germany
Does anybody know in which max. wind / wave height they are going to sail? I've heard something of 4bft / 1m which I think is difficult to believe.


F18: C2 / A-Cat: Minelli
#199826 - 01/03/10 07:39 AM Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: Baltic]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,278
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,278
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Baltic
Does anybody know in which max. wind / wave height they are going to sail? I've heard something of 4bft / 1m which I think is difficult to believe.


that's another big point of contention. Alinghi released the NOR for the event several months ago that over-reaches on several other issues. One of the big ones is that the NOR places a limit of 15knots of wind and 1 meter wave heights which many feel are too low (personally, I think that 1 meter wave limit is going to be much more of a limitation than 15 knots...you'll get one meter waves offshore in 10 knots of breeze quite easily). Before BMWO came out with the wing, we believed the catamaran to have an advantage in the exceptionally light conditions...so they've attempted to limit racing to where they feel like they would win.

Conceptually, it's illegal for the defender to act on their own to place any kind of limits on racing that could delay the event. As per the Deed, the challenger specifies the first date of racing. For the defender to put limits that could reschedule that racing would be illegal. Limits can be established for the event but the challenger would have to consent to them first.


Jake Kohl
#199831 - 01/03/10 09:31 AM Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: Jake]  
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,021
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,021
Sebring, Florida.
I just finished reading the article in the new Sailing World about BMWO and their new 190' wing. Wow.

The part that struck me though was that they really havn't had time to "shake it down" so to speak. What is the AC Protocol if one boat breaks something major and is unable to get it fixed right away? Does the other team wait until it's fixed or does the broken team forfit the remaining races if they cannot continue "on schedule"?

That wing is huge, did they build two of them in case one breaks? And another thing, even though BMWO is built as a trimaran, to me it looks like they will be sailing it as a cat, on one hull most of the time, since the large center hull has no rudder or daggerboard. So in reality it's like a cat too, with a big center pod. I just hope it stays in one piece until the regatta is over!


Blade F16
#777
#199834 - 01/03/10 11:21 AM Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: Timbo]  
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 531
FasterDamnit Offline
addict
FasterDamnit  Offline
addict

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 531
Lake Murray SC
That article is out of date. Wing has seen quite a bit of sailing. Much of it on live SD bay video cams. Had some breakdowns, nothing major, and right back out- including over the horizon. The most amazing footage was of the tacking and gybing trials in the bay full of weekend sailors. With the wing it tacks and gybes FAST!! Accelerates like a bat out of hell, too.


Race cheap, race faster, Damnit!

E-Scow
24' ULDB

18HT hulls plus Gcat 5.7 rig = 18GT!
#199835 - 01/03/10 11:39 AM Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: FasterDamnit]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,276
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,276
Long Beach, California
I was lucky enough to attend the Ullman Winter Seminar by Morrelli and Melvin on hard wings. Although there was plenty of historical information in the presentation, they of course focused on BOR90 for much of the talk. The inside-the-tent pictures were phenomenal and it was incredibly interesting to hear Pete discuss how the wing has advanced.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
#199836 - 01/03/10 12:06 PM Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: John Williams]  
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,021
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,021
Sebring, Florida.
OK, back to my original question, if something major breaks, worst case say they have to replace the entire wing, and they cannot make what ever the next scheduled race is, say the next day, do they "postpone" that race or does the broken team forfit that race?

Both of these boats are so new, and so huge, I expect one or both will experience some trouble during the regatta. So how will that be dealt with, time wise? Is Ernesto writing that rule too? It could come back to bite him if his boat breaks first.


Blade F16
#777
#199838 - 01/03/10 12:29 PM Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: Timbo]  
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,879
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,879
Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by Timbo
OK, back to my original question, if something major breaks, worst case say they have to replace the entire wing, and they cannot make what ever the next scheduled race is, say the next day, do they "postpone" that race or does the broken team forfit that race?

Both of these boats are so new, and so huge, I expect one or both will experience some trouble during the regatta. So how will that be dealt with, time wise? Is Ernesto writing that rule too? It could come back to bite him if his boat breaks first.

In more "gentlemanly" times, the opponent would likely give the other some limited time to fix the problem.

I don't think that's very likely in this situation. Once the schedule is set, the way it's probably going to work this time is you either show up on time or you forfeit that race.

There is no backup wing. There are two backup soft rigs (maybe three if they've fixed the mast they broke right before they went to the wing).

#199847 - 01/03/10 05:27 PM Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: Timbo]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,278
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,278
South Carolina
Boat breakage can definitely be a significant issue under the non-mutual consent DoG scenario. There are no provisions for additional delay for repair. Racing is to start on Feb. 8th for a best of three series. If a race isn't finished in 7 hours, it didn't happen. There will be one day of rest between each race day until someone wins two races. That is, unless somehow the two teams miraculous find common ground on something and consent to changing the format.

If someone breaks something - they better hope they can fix it in around 41 hours.


Jake Kohl
#199906 - 01/04/10 11:27 PM Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: Jake]  
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 678
TheManShed Offline
addict
TheManShed  Offline
addict

Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 678
Palm Beach County
On with the race how cool a big cat vs a big tri! It just gives me chills watching the BMWO flying two hulls. Got to go sand the TMS-20 now!

Jake thanks for the report.


Mike Shappell
www.themanshed.com
TMS-20 Builder
G-Cat 5.7 - Current Boat
NACRA 5.2 - early 70's

#199912 - 01/05/10 07:21 AM Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: TheManShed]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,278
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,278
South Carolina
no problem! I enjoy keeping up with this stuff.

Apparently there was a semi-secret meeting held between the teams at the end of December where they discussed and tentatively agreed on several things - including some of the weird things in the NOR (several of which have been impacted by the most recent court rulings). BMWO has complained to SNG that none of the few things they were able to agree upon had been changed yet.

The teams are reported to get together on Jan 12th in Singapore for a meeting that will be arbitrated by David Tillett. Mr. Tillett is the chairman of the International Jury for the event (that still hasn't been ratified).

SNG/Alinghi are still pushing hard on getting GGYC/BMWO to moor inside the Valencia Darsena (America's Cup Harbor). GGYC/BMWO are resisting as there is not enough room to moor their boat with the wing up and allow it to swing 360 degrees. SNG/Alinghi has also continued to slowly turn up the volume on their complaint that the wing isn't really a sail (the deed specifies the boats to be "propelled by sails only"). I believe that SNG/Alinghi is pushing the mooring issue to get GGYC/BMWO to say something about the difference between a soft sail and a wing sail that they can use against them.

The Sailing Instructions are due out of SNG/Alinghi on Jan 8th. It's possible we will see an amended NOR at that time too. You can expect Jan. 10th to see a lot of communication between the teams again as I anticipate several new issues to arise with the SI's and a continuation of issues with the NOR.


Jake Kohl
#199926 - 01/05/10 10:45 AM Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: Jake]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,654
ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,654
Portland, Maine
Quote
SNG/Alinghi are still pushing hard on getting GGYC/BMWO to moor inside the Valencia Darsena (America's Cup Harbor). GGYC/BMWO are resisting as there is not enough room to moor their boat with the wing up and allow it to swing 360 degrees. SNG/Alinghi has also continued to slowly turn up the volume on their complaint that the wing isn't really a sail (the deed specifies the boats to be "propelled by sails only"). I believe that SNG/Alinghi is pushing the mooring issue to get GGYC/BMWO to say something about the difference between a soft sail and a wing sail that they can use against them.


SNG is going to have a real hard time claiming that a wing isn't a sail despite anything that BMWO says or doesn't say:
[Linked Image]

#199936 - 01/05/10 11:51 AM Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: ThunderMuffin]  
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,305
Luiz Offline
veteran
Luiz  Offline
veteran

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,305
Asuncion, Paraguay
Originally Posted by Undecided

SNG is going to have a real hard time claiming that a wing isn't a sail despite anything that BMWO says or doesn't say:
[Linked Image]


Hardly an issue. Sail or not sail, nothing prohibits wings (or any appendages) in the DoG.


Luiz
#199952 - 01/05/10 03:06 PM Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: Luiz]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,278
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,278
South Carolina
While I firmly believe the wing is easily defined as a sail, the DoG does say specifically "propelled by sails only". So if the wing is NOT a sail, it wouldn't be Deed Legal. It would be different if the Deed specifies propelled by wind only - but it does not.

The challenge also specifies a sloop rig...so the wing has to meet that requirement for the challenge to be valid as well. They can string headsails up and have done so testing in San Diego.


Jake Kohl
#199956 - 01/05/10 03:39 PM Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: Jake]  
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
hobie1616 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
hobie1616  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 5,582
“an island in the Pacific....
Wouldn't Connor's use of a wing set a precedent?


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
#199957 - 01/05/10 03:41 PM Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: hobie1616]  
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,654
ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,654
Portland, Maine
It would. But Alinghi managed to do something legally that blows away all meaning of the word "precedent" when it comes to legal findings concerning the deed of gift.

#199963 - 01/05/10 04:40 PM Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: ThunderMuffin]  

**DONOTDELETE**
Unregistered
andrewscott
Unregistered


hey, lets save all the bad talk about the "precedent" for the drill baby thread! (kiddin)

#199970 - 01/05/10 05:29 PM Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: ThunderMuffin]  
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,583
Tony_F18 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Tony_F18  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,583
+31NL
Originally Posted by Undecided
It would. But Alinghi managed to do something legally that blows away all meaning of the word "precedent" when it comes to legal findings concerning the deed of gift.

Everything will be ok.
Just relax, sit down, breath calmly, get some tea, ...and have a Toblerone! grin

#199982 - 01/05/10 09:49 PM Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: hobie1616]  
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,278
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,278
South Carolina
Originally Posted by hobie1616
Wouldn't Connor's use of a wing set a precedent?


Well...Yes and no. It wasn't tested legally in court at that time so there could still be a debate whether or not a wing truly constitutes a "sail". Having it happen once before makes the proverbial bat a little bigger but it doesn't automatically hit a home run. In other words, if SDYC cheated in 1988 and got away with using the wing, it doesn't make it legal forever into the future. It does, however, offer some intrinsic evidence that rigid wings are commonly used as sails in extremely similar scenarios.

Disclaimer: I'm not saying I think SDYC cheated - In fact, I believe the rigid wing sail to be a true "sail" that will stand up to a court or international jury test if it goes that far.


Jake Kohl
#200005 - 01/06/10 09:34 AM Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: Jake]  
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,573
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,573
Naples, FL
Don't they call gliders "sailplanes"? They have fixed wings, don't they?


Jay

Page 2 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
1 registered members (phill), 25 guests, and 304 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
MMOaknfl, NilsonPardal, corrinezhan, pussycatcatman, Shotsailor
7727 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Jake 6
Timbo 3
P.M. 2
Forum Statistics
Forums27
Topics22,270
Posts266,193
Members7,727
Most Online554
May 12th, 2017
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.6.0
Page Time: 0.014s Queries: 16 (0.003s) Memory: 0.9236 MB (Peak: 1.1773 MB) Zlib enabled. Server Time: 2017-12-15 12:00:44 UTC