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#241181 - 12/13/11 01:54 PM Re: Key Largo Steeplechase Update [Re: RickWhite]  
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Jake Offline
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For what it's worth, I wasn't complaining about the line...it's just one other factor to consider.

But, (I'm being quite serious - not sarcastic) was it really port favored? Did I misread it THAT much?


Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
#241183 - 12/13/11 02:08 PM Re: Key Largo Steeplechase Update [Re: RickWhite]  
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mbounds Offline
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Detroit, MI
Sorry you feel I "viciously" attacked you, Rick, because I didn't. I asked a simple question - why wasn't there a DSQ/RAF after the collision? Todd H. responded with "protests aren't allowed," which I thought was highly unusual. Todd R. PM'd me, thanking me for bringing it up and expressing his frustration with Skip's unresponsiveness and unwillingness to accept responsibility. So I kept at it.

It's all fun and games until someone gets their eye poked out. Then what? Who's going to pay to repair or replace that hull?

I'm not the only one that smells unsportsmanlike behavior here, so don't lay it on me for stating the obvious. You didn't bother to vilify JC, JDub, or even Ding who agreed that Skip displayed "poor form". I suggested that Skip should have RAF'd, which is the sportsmanlike thing to do when there's major damage - even if you had the right of way.

You could have been proactive in dealing with this, but you weren't. "Oh, it's OK - just duct tape it up and keep going. We're all just one happy family - can't we all get along?" Bull$hit. I don't see you writing a check to cover Todd's damages.

And US Sailing is watching.

#241189 - 12/13/11 02:27 PM Re: Key Largo Steeplechase Update [Re: mbounds]  
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waterbug_wpb Offline
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Naples, FL
As MICREEK indicated, this sort of damage and the discussion about the two skippers involved not working this out amenably will tend to drive off the new entries into distance sailing for fear of having to cough up big money to fix things that may not have been all their fault.

Sure, scuffs and bumps are to be anticipated in racing, but I think this damage is well beyond this threshold and should fall under general seamanship rules (first rule is avoid collision, second rule is to step up and do what's right).

All of us armchair skippers love to analyze what happened and point fingers, but the folks out there that morning didn't have the benefit of multiple points-of-view, slow motion, and instant replay.

I actually feel for both parties involved and hope it is resolved amicably as it would be sad to sully the reputation of fine sailors as well as the Steeplechase event itself.


Jay

#241198 - 12/13/11 03:04 PM Re: Key Largo Steeplechase Update [Re: RickWhite]  
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Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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Originally Posted by RickWhite
(OH, and by the way, Jake, I set a very heavily favored port end, knowing if I didn't set it that way everyone would be at the windward end, and even so, they still were for some reason. The hot boats did start down the line and most of jumped out to nice leads)


Are we talking about port favored to the wind direction or port favored by the distance to the bridge? I'm pretty sure I couldn't have laid the start line on a port tack - maybe my recollection is not good. While it's possible that the left buoy might have been closer to the bridge, to start down there on the beginning of a reaching leg on an F18 with a fleet of monster boats could have meant potentially getting rolled all the way to the back of the fleet even with a perfect start. I've actually done that in this race before and it was a painful beginning to the day.


Jake Kohl
#241200 - 12/13/11 03:09 PM Re: Key Largo Steeplechase Update [Re: mbounds]  
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Mark Schneider Offline
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Quote
And US Sailing is watching.


Ya THINK...... this is the same Organizing Authority that is running the Olympic Junior Selection and Art Stevens Junior regatta...

Why use Tradewinds ... because we told them that Tradewinds would be a popular regatta.

Take a look at the charter fees for Vipers for this event and you will see that people are spending serious coin to compete and they expect and deserve an event run by the book.

Why??? No surprises when you follow the book....

Screwing around with the process that the rest of the world has no problems with is indeed Bull$hit


crac.sailregattas.com
#241204 - 12/13/11 03:29 PM Re: Key Largo Steeplechase Update [Re: Mark Schneider]  
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PTP Offline
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it isn't even the person coughing up the money to fix the other boat. I believe that is what insurance is for

#241205 - 12/13/11 03:30 PM Re: Key Largo Steeplechase Update [Re: Mary]  
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Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
I just spoke with Riccardi and in the end it sounds as if Skip doesn't see this as his fault.
Looks to me like it's about as straight forward as you can get. The ARC 22 (Skip) had no rights and bore away into the N-20 (Todd) which was to leeward of him. Is there any possible way this isn't the supercat's fault?

p.s. And by the way Rick, awesome work on the throttles. Evasive maneuvering at it's best. Maybe you've found the subject of your next seminar/book.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
#241207 - 12/13/11 03:43 PM Re: Key Largo Steeplechase Update [Re: PTP]  
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Mlcreek Offline
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Hernando, Florida
" it isn't even the person coughing up the money to fix the other boat. I believe that is what insurance is for "
You hope! Better read up on your maritime law if they don't. Like someone said, plastic can be fixed, glad it wasn't an eye or worse!

Last edited by Mlcreek; 12/13/11 03:44 PM.

Forrest
I-20
USA 645

" There ain't enough rum in the drum!"
#241214 - 12/13/11 04:13 PM Re: Key Largo Steeplechase Update [Re: Mark Schneider]  
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Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Take a look at the charter fees for Vipers for this event and you will see that people are spending serious coin to compete and they expect and deserve an event run by the book.


FYI, its not just a standard "here's a boat, have fun" charter. As far as I know the boats are being managed, they're being setup, and will be tuned for the teams, then they're being torn back down. Plus one of them is personally owned, (mine), that alone demands a premium damn it! laugh


I'm boatless.
#241216 - 12/13/11 04:17 PM Re: Key Largo Steeplechase Update [Re: Mark Schneider]  
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catandahalf Offline
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Spinoff topic re Tradewinds

simple question - who does Rick White have from US Sailing to govern the SIs and conduct of the event?

next question - why did US Sailing elect to combine all the major Youth Titles/opportunities into one weekend of sailing?

next question - What say so did the USA Formula 16 Class Association have in this final solution?

The ISAF expects due process and fair sailing that is rigorous and precisely managed.

BTW, coach boats for catamaran racing should be restrained from entering the course side of the race track/Starting Line and patroling the course. Their wakes will not ensure total fairness, and the required speed of pacing will introduce hazards. Coach boats should be corralled behind the Starting Line unless asked by the Race Comm for emergency assistance. OOPs - safety boats available???

br


#241226 - 12/13/11 04:51 PM Re: Key Largo Steeplechase Update [Re: catandahalf]  
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Jake Offline
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Careful...we finally have US Sailing doing something positive with catamarans AND Olympics. Let's not tear ourselves to shreds before it even happens.


Jake Kohl
#241229 - 12/13/11 04:56 PM Re: Key Largo Steeplechase Update [Re: catandahalf]  
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Timbo Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
Originally Posted by catandahalf
Spinoff topic re Tradewinds

simple question - who does Rick White have from US Sailing to govern the SIs and conduct of the event?

next question - why did US Sailing elect to combine all the major Youth Titles/opportunities into one weekend of sailing?

next question - What say so did the USA Formula 16 Class Association have in this final solution?

The ISAF expects due process and fair sailing that is rigorous and precisely managed.

BTW, coach boats for catamaran racing should be restrained from entering the course side of the race track/Starting Line and patroling the course. Their wakes will not ensure total fairness, and the required speed of pacing will introduce hazards. Coach boats should be corralled behind the Starting Line unless asked by the Race Comm for emergency assistance. OOPs - safety boats available???

br



Oh fark...Please, Please, PLEASE no friggn' Coach Boats out on the course!

OR...put the kids on the F16's on an entirely separate course, far far away...

I'm not talking about Taylor and Matt, they know what they are doing and surely don't need a coach boat. I just don't want to see this turn into a big Opti regatta!


Blade F16
#777
#241244 - 12/13/11 08:43 PM Re: Key Largo Steeplechase Update [Re: mbounds]  
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TeamChums Offline
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TeamChums  Offline
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Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
Quote
Sorry you feel I "viciously" attacked you, Rick, because I didn't.


Quote
You could have been proactive in dealing with this, but you weren't. "Oh, it's OK - just duct tape it up and keep going. We're all just one happy family - can't we all get along?" Bull$hit. I don't see you writing a check to cover Todd's damages.



Umm, I know I didn't go to college but isn't that attacking someone?


Lee

Sail fast or get the hell out of the way.
#241246 - 12/13/11 10:16 PM Re: Key Largo Steeplechase Update [Re: TeamChums]  
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TeamChums Offline
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TeamChums  Offline
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Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
Looks like in the Video, the ARC22 keeps going and doesn't turn back to see if Todd and Brandon are ok. What a dousche bag. Now he's reniging on taking responsibility? Sounds like the guy realy knows how to make lifelong friends.


Lee

Sail fast or get the hell out of the way.
#241247 - 12/13/11 10:33 PM Re: Key Largo Steeplechase Update [Re: TeamChums]  
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mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

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Detroit, MI
Quote
viĚcious/ˈviSHəs/
Adjective:
1) Deliberately cruel or violent.
2) (of an animal) Wild and dangerous to people.
Synonyms:
wicked - malicious - evil - bad - perverse

None of my comments on this thread qualify as vicious.

Quote
atĚtack   [uh-tak]
verb (used with object)
1. to set upon in a forceful, violent, hostile, or aggressive way, with or without a weapon; begin fighting with: He attacked him with his bare hands.
2. to begin hostilities against; start an offensive against: to attack the enemy.
3. to blame or abuse violently or bitterly.
4. to direct unfavorable criticism against; criticize severely; argue with strongly: He attacked his opponent's statement.
5. to try to destroy, especially with verbal abuse: to attack the mayor's reputation.


"Attack" is a bit strong for any of the statements I've made. Besides, the example you cited, Lee, came after the first statement.

I'll admit to being critical the way this was handled. Rick takes umbrage with my criticism and calls it a "vicious attack". I'm not going to lose any sleep tonight because of that.

It could have been a lot worse
The moment of contact:
[Linked Image]

If Todd hadn't been flying a hull, he would have been speared. If the collision angle had been a bit less, the pole would have glanced off and hit Brendon.

You've dodged a huge bullet here, Rick. If you think you've limited your exposure with your lack of rules, you're mistaken. Lawyers are really expensive - even if you "win".

#241250 - 12/13/11 11:05 PM Re: Key Largo Steeplechase Update [Re: Mary]  
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Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Northfield Mn
Didn't watch the video. I'm tethered to my phone right now, and the service is pretty sketchy. From the frame you put on there Matt it doesn't look like he would've gotten speared, and from where the damage was, (behind the rear beam) he wouldn't have gotten speared even if he wasn't flying a hull. While its just stroking my.......... ego, chances are if the ARC pole wasn't so low, and/or Blinky hadn't been flying a hull it probably would've glanced off by dragging a spin pole bridle, or there would've been bow to hull contact.

Either way, you're being a drama queen here about the potential outcomes. Its like saying Tripps red spray top could attract a bull from shore and send it charging out on the water. Not really but you're still being a queen.


I'm boatless.
#241253 - 12/14/11 06:59 AM Re: Key Largo Steeplechase Update [Re: Mary]  
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Timbo Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
You guys are all missing the fact that this is all the fault of Karl's new spinnaker pole. If Karl had not been holding up high, trying to stay out of the way to protect his new pole, the Super Cat could have gone up higher and missed the whole mele'.

But since Karl was up there in the way, trying to protect that damned worthless pole of his (just ask his wife) the SC had nowhere to go but...into the Inter 20.

Ask any Wave sailor how those damned Inter 20's just suck you in to their votex!


Blade F16
#777
#241254 - 12/14/11 07:04 AM Re: Key Largo Steeplechase Update [Re: Mary]  
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pgp Offline
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Dude, not while I'm drinking coffee, please. laugh


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

#241255 - 12/14/11 07:08 AM Re: Key Largo Steeplechase Update [Re: Karl_Brogger]  
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mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

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Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by Karl_Brogger
Didn't watch the video.

You need to watch the video before you make any statements regarding it. I've been on a protest committee (2009 Hobie Tiger North Americans) where a skipper got speared at a mark rounding, so that type of injury is not unheard of. A Tiger's pole is a lot shorter than that lance on the ARC-20.

Bad things happen in the blink of an eye, when you least expect them to. All you can do as an organizer is be prepared. Explicitly invoking the Racing Rules of Sailing, having the appropriate insurance and having a written safety plan go a long way towards mitigating the accusation of negligence in a lawsuit.

#241256 - 12/14/11 07:32 AM Re: Key Largo Steeplechase Update [Re: Timbo]  
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Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Too bad I'm not still doing the starts and finishes as I did for many years when Rick was just one of the racers -- then you might have some REAL complaints. For the 1st day start I would go out and just put two buoys in the water roughly parallel to the bridge, with no account for wind direction or anything. And I just told them "Whatever you do, don't even think about being over early."

Then I drove down to Anne's Beach and waded out as far as I could and put a buoy in the water for the finish. If the tide went out before they finished, sometimes they had to practically drag their boats across the finish line.

This is not some kind of "official" race. It doesn't say in the instructions anything about it being sailed under the US Sailing RRS. The sailors are entirely on their own and responsible for themselves and for, hopefully, helping fellow sailors in distress -- and also resolving any problems among themselves. If the race cannot be done that way, there will no longer be a race -- simple as that.

This race was not even our idea -- it was the brainchild of a guy named Chris Hampshire. So in 1985 Chris and four other sailors, including Rick, from our Miami Hobie fleet, decided to see if it could be done. It worked, so the group decided to make it an annual event. Since we live down here, I volunteered to set the start and finish lines and do the scoring.

It would be great if someone else wants to volunteer to do the starts and finishes for a change. Rick would like to be able to sail in the race again.

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