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#247155 - 04/18/12 02:09 PM Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: mikekrantz]  
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Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by mikekrantz
Youre not factoring the cost of hardware
I just built out an acat mast
I thought I could save some money just buying a bare tube

20 hrs labor and $1,700 in hardware later I had a mast...

There's a lot of hardware that goes into a complete F18


There was alot of hardware in the same boat 5 years ago at almost half the price. The factories are taking everyone for a ride ,dealers included.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
-- Have You Seen This? --
#247156 - 04/18/12 02:24 PM Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150]  
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MarkMT Offline
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MarkMT  Offline
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Lake Zurich, IL
It would be interesting to know (not that we ever will), what percentage of the big builders' selling price represents their marketing costs.

#247159 - 04/18/12 03:10 PM Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: mikekrantz]  
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pitchpoledave Offline
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pitchpoledave  Offline
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Toronto, Ontario
Mast hardware cost $1700?? what did you get? Can you give us a list?

#247161 - 04/18/12 03:15 PM Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: MarkMT]  
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waynemarlow Offline
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Does marketing include paying for all the top jocks to race the boats at all the top events and all the expenses involved in making sure you win at events by having the best kit sailed by the best crew, of course. Does it include all the shiny adds in the yachting mags, does it include the latest high tech offices and the managing directors bonus for growing the company turn over, of course.

Sadly the cost of actually building the boats will be the smallest part in the total cost of manufacturing and selling the boats.

#247168 - 04/18/12 05:23 PM Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150]  
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TheManShed Offline
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Palm Beach County
The second boat builder I worked for - power boats - in the late 70's really didn't need the money it was more that he wanted a boat with his name on the boat. Anyway he left the business when liability insurance got so high, offered it me, I ran the business for him. I almost took the deal but decide on a real job as I was getting married. You always wonder what if . The mark-up was about 2/3rds back then on the complete boat, plus everything you sold them as an add-on was gravy not counting return shop fees. But like I said he did not want the insurance liabilities he already had his pile of money.


Mike Shappell
www.themanshed.com
TMS-20 Builder
G-Cat 5.7 - Current Boat
NACRA 5.2 - early 70's

#247169 - 04/18/12 05:35 PM Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: waynemarlow]  
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macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
Originally Posted by waynemarlow
Does marketing include paying for all the top jocks to race the boats at all the top events and all the expenses involved in making sure you win at events by having the best kit sailed by the best crew, of course. Does it include all the shiny adds in the yachting mags, does it include the latest high tech offices and the managing directors bonus for growing the company turn over, of course.

Sadly the cost of actually building the boats will be the smallest part in the total cost of manufacturing and selling the boats.


Wayne, you make it sound like building boats is a real business with a goal of making a profit, not so different from any other business really... smile I am not suggesting that there are massive amounts to be made or that builders are greedy, I haven't seen too many of them with 3 houses and ferrari's....

Now, I need to buy a car next week, can't decide between the cayenne or the range rover.. smile

Last edited by macca; 04/18/12 05:38 PM.

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#247173 - 04/18/12 07:45 PM Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: macca]  
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kyle robberts Offline
stranger
kyle robberts  Offline
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If you want to make a small fortune building boats start with a big one

#247197 - 04/19/12 06:25 AM Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: mini]  
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mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
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Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by mini
... chop strand mat and rovings are all purchased by the pound. These are the things that make up your H16 of the day.

Hobie 16s have never been made with chop strand mat or rovings in the hull laminate.

And they're still made in the USA. You could buy two of them for what an F18 costs.

And I don't buy the hardware spin either. Harken Carbo blocks are less expensive than comparable Harken Classic blocks.

I'm not saying anybody's getting rich here, but something ain't right.

People on this forum bemoan shrinking fleets and that "there's no new blood". Has anyone considered that high-tech boats are just too expensive and demanding for newbies? That they don't see the benefit of dropping $25K on a toy?

And in the meantime, you slag off Hobie 16s as "beginner boats", "pitchpole machines" and look down your noses because they aren't "high tech".

You're "high-teching" yourself into a very limited existence.

#247199 - 04/19/12 07:14 AM Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150]  
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orphan Offline
enthusiast
orphan  Offline
enthusiast

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Daytona Beach Florida
10K for a Hobie 16 ain't cheap. What was the price of a hobie 16 in the mid 80's 1500-2000. Do you realize that used 80s and 90s hobies are selling for more then the cost new(20 years ago). But it is not just cats. Look at the laser(same boat higher price).

#247201 - 04/19/12 07:51 AM Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: kyle robberts]  
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TheManShed Offline
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Palm Beach County
Originally Posted by kyle robberts
If you want to make a small fortune building boats start with a big one


Funny - but more often true then not! I have one friend that started from hocking everything to start-up his boat building business to making over a million when he sold it. It was and still is a great boat. 10 years later he is living in his shop and his ferrari 308 does not run but he did what he wanted to do that has no price on it!


Mike Shappell
www.themanshed.com
TMS-20 Builder
G-Cat 5.7 - Current Boat
NACRA 5.2 - early 70's

#247205 - 04/19/12 08:45 AM Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: orphan]  
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pgp Offline
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IIRC, the H-16 was about the same price as a Toyota Corolla when it first came out. Now it is much less, fwiw.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

#247207 - 04/19/12 08:57 AM Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150]  
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David Ingram Offline
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The simple fact of the matter is that it's a free market, it only makes sense that a provider will charge what the market will bare. Even at these prices I would have had to wait 6 months for an Infusion and even then there was no guarantee I could get it before North Americans. I bought a C2 because it was sitting in a warehouse waiting for my check. I think most would admit that the F18 designs have converged and that only thing left is price. If the margins are as fat as you think they are prices will fall or providers will move to a market where they can make money.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
#247208 - 04/19/12 09:01 AM Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150]  
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F18_VB Offline
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I think the biggest thing that changed is that there is no longer the perception that the Tiger (a 10+ year old design) can win any regatta. The perception may or may not be based in reality. But, it means that sailors are willing to pay a premium for what they perceive as a faster boat.

Manufacturers are responding to this by updating their boats and selling costly upgrades like long daggerboards.

This perception may be based because a new design has won Worlds the past few years. So, hopefully the 2012 worlds is not won on a Cirrus R or a Falcon F18 (sorry Matt).

#247210 - 04/19/12 09:13 AM Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: orphan]  
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mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
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Detroit, MI
Originally Posted by orphan
10K for a Hobie 16 ain't cheap. What was the price of a hobie 16 in the mid 80's 1500-2000. Do you realize that used 80s and 90s hobies are selling for more then the cost new(20 years ago). But it is not just cats. Look at the laser(same boat higher price).

That conveniently neglects the effects of inflation, which are significant.

My father bought our first Hobie 16 (new) in 1973 - $1250. That's $6400 in today's money.

I bought my first Hobie 16 (new) in 1983 - $3400.
That's $7830 in today's money.

I forget what I paid for my second 16 - it was an '89 nationals boat, so it was essentially used.

I bought my third Hobie 16 (new) in 1998 - $6345
That's $8920 in today's money.

My current 16, bought new in 2007 was $7545
That's $8350 in today's money. (Rob Jerry cut me a deal.)

So a brand-new 16 costing $10K in 2012 is not that much different than ones sold a long time ago on an inflation adjusted basis. And the new ones today are a lot better than the new ones in the '70s and 80's.

#247211 - 04/19/12 09:17 AM Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150]  
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Mike Hill Offline
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Mike Hill  Offline
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St. Louis, MO,
I think the biggest factor is that demand has fallen. Not nearly as many boats selling. Of the boats that are selling the market share is split between about 7 companies. I think if you could guarentee a sale of 100 boats to a manufacturer you could get them at a really good price.

It's tooling and startup costs for each new design. The designs change every 3 years or so for all the companies.

We asked for this moving away from one design. I saw this coming and it's here. I actually thought it would be worse but the F18 class has done a good job of controlling costs.



Mike Hill
N20 #1005
#247212 - 04/19/12 09:32 AM Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150]  
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kyle robberts Offline
stranger
kyle robberts  Offline
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Posts: 7
need to get a single wave hull down from Pt Pleasent N.J. to central Fla will pay fair price
Thanks Kyle

#247214 - 04/19/12 09:40 AM Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: TheManShed]  
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hobie1616 Offline
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“an island in the Pacific....
Originally Posted by TheManShed
... his ferrari 308 does...

Italian trash... besides, I only steal Porsches.
---Charlie Sheen, No Man's Land


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
#247217 - 04/19/12 09:59 AM Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F18_VB]  
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samc99us Offline
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samc99us  Offline
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Solomon's Island, MD
Originally Posted by F18_VB
I think the biggest thing that changed is that there is no longer the perception that the Tiger (a 10+ year old design) can win any regatta. The perception may or may not be based in reality. But, it means that sailors are willing to pay a premium for what they perceive as a faster boat.

Manufacturers are responding to this by updating their boats and selling costly upgrades like long daggerboards.

This perception may be based because a new design has won Worlds the past few years. So, hopefully the 2012 worlds is not won on a Cirrus R or a Falcon F18 (sorry Matt).


I'll contend rig design (sails+mast), running rigging layout and platform reliability are the keys to winning a regatta from a boat standpoint. The crew makes the largest difference, and the top crews are out practicing every day. Just because you buy the 2011 World Champ Boat (C2 btw) doesn't mean you are going to win. A lot of hype has gone into the whole "new hull shape" every 2-3 years deal. We haven't seen the manufacturers testing, and I'm sure some changes result in real performance improvements (beam placement for example), but I suspect a Wildcat rig, sails and foils on the Tiger would be very competitive with the new boat (just one example).

The Infusion hasn't changed in several years, save for the advent of updated sails and the Mk. 2 extreme dagger boards.

Sure, new boat prices are up to pay for some of these developments. Boat prices aren't going down anytime soon, raw material costs are up and shipping costs are up, partly due to the increased price of petroleum based products. If you are complaining about new boat prices, there are still plenty of F-18's on the market in the $10K range, that in conjunction with new sails are still competitive boats. The Hobie 16 is a great boat but few things in life beat a 22+ kt sustained downwind spinnaker run.


F18 Infusion
#247218 - 04/19/12 10:03 AM Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: F-18 5150]  
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TheManShed Offline
addict
TheManShed  Offline
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Palm Beach County
You know I just realized what is great about this forum?

It is the only place where somebody in whole World really cares and listens when you complain about how much Sailing costs.


Mike Shappell
www.themanshed.com
TMS-20 Builder
G-Cat 5.7 - Current Boat
NACRA 5.2 - early 70's

#247219 - 04/19/12 10:09 AM Re: Why are F-18's so expensive? [Re: mbounds]  
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Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
Originally Posted by mbounds
And they're still made in the USA. You could buy two of them for what an F18 costs.


My last H16 was laid up in Australia. 2006 model.


Originally Posted by mbounds
And in the meantime, you slag off Hobie 16s as "beginner boats", "pitchpole machines" and look down your noses because they aren't "high tech".


ummm, I think everyone started on a H16, so yeah, I'd say beginner boat. And it is a pitchpole machine. How many H16's can dip the tack of the jib into the water, and pull out of it?

[Linked Image]



Originally Posted by mbounds
You're "high-teching" yourself into a very limited existence.


Tru dat!


I don't have anything against the H16, but the H16 crowd is just rabid about their love for that boat, and you guys are waaaaayyyy to f-ing sensitive. Anything short of showering the boat with praise is viewed negatively.






(edit)- You guys are forgetting another factor, the US dollar is frickin' worthless right now compared to the Euro, (Wild-Cat, NACRA, Cirrus, etc), and the Australian Dollar is coming on hard affecting the AHPC Prices. When I bought my first Viper it was ~$.70 to the US dollar, right now its $1.03US to the Australian Dollar. The boats have not gone up 30% in price.

Last edited by Karl_Brogger; 04/19/12 10:20 AM.

I'm boatless.
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