The RoT-race is approx. 100 kilometers = 54 nm.

Hey Wouter -

I was on the beach at Jensen... I didn't see anyone do anything "stupid." There was certainly a wide range of experience among the skippers, but nobody was dumb. I recall a couple of experienced folks deciding to not push off that morning, and I also recall being surprised that one of the teams I considered less-experienced made it out. I was crushed when one team that made it out didn't make it to the finish line in one piece. I didn't think a single one of them, on the beach or on the water, was "stupid." Maybe you didn't mean it the way it is worded. Otherwise, take some of your own advice there - don't judge. Like this Texel, the still pictures from Jensen can't tell the whole story. Get the Feldman's video.

Here is a picture that shows a boat that could hit the waves pretty square. i wonder if the wind was dead onshore? there are shots of guys on port so maybe it was, or there were just some confused sailors.
A light boat should have an advantage getting thru surf. the main qualitys of a light boat are better acceleration, and less drag in moderate conditions.

[img]http://www.photoos.net/cgi-bin/phts.sh/b/bevewphoto.p?bevec=rot05&besen=35&xmlac=nl&tpl=[tpl]&bphon=76958&stype=0[/img]

I have definitely found that heavier boats are much easier to sail through surf, providing you have time to get up some speed. The reason is inertia and force. F=ma. My favorite boat to sail through surf was my early Hobie 18 (sail #130something)--it must have weighed 450lbs and punched right through. Light boats pop their bows up easier and get knocked sideways easier--that's when capsize happens. Also, momentum is easily lost, and with no momentum there's no steering; no steering and you're a sitting duck. For those reasons, the heavy boats carry through the surf much easier.

BTW, in the photo, the larger wave in the distance is clearly at an angle to the boats heading. Onshore winds are really tough to punch out in, especially with short wave periods. If the conditions chewed up Booth and others, I think it's pretty naive to think the conditions getting out weren't tough.

Perhaps, pulling boats out with a jetski should be a option?

I agree completely with John. I too was on the beach at Jensen, and particularly remember that the ocean had no rythem to it that morning. (We had a couple of very experienced surfers with us there that week deciding when to go out to catch the breaking waves right.) There it was pretty much go at the horn and hope you made the right decisions; pre-start strategy and execution through the surf(50%)and just got lucky (50%).

I do think that the best info came at the KL Steeplechase the following December when the Feldman's previewed the video for some of the sailors from that years Worrell there. The video showed these guys views that made them see what had happened to them.....Views that they didn't get from the boat. ie, they saw the wave right there, but not the one RIGHT behind it!!!

And on boat weight.....

After pushing the Nacra-20 and the F18HT through the surf, the heavier boat seems better at holding initial speed. The lighter boat just gets hammered and stops in the surf. The heavier ones loose some speed, but not all of it!!!

Just my observations from behind the boats....

Rich

100 kliks to the south! Did the RC give you your own start at Walibi Flevo? Hey Wouter you said they were stupid in the Worrell ,Again!We must presume that with your mastery of the English language you know exactly what your writing.
I was at Jensen and it seemed that the unfavoured wind angle was the way to get past the break into open water, the boats that went East or S.East took a beating.The Drivers that went over early to the North on the unfavoured wind angle seemed to get over mountainous swells and chop,five or sIx boats at least thats how it appeared to me.In Texel I got to hand it to everybody that made that event especially the P16 crew, You know he went out in that at gunpoint. "Reality Sailing" another Endemol production! Happier than most!

Hi, all in all nice discussion, the problem was at Texel that the waves [2-2,5 mtr] were coming in very very high fequently, there was no time to recover after being hit by a wave. We managed to get out [on a Nacra 5.5]due to speedingb downwind before the surf, this gave us the oppertunity to look for gaps in the wave patorn. The only "stupid"that I saw peaople do is that they were trying to take the shortest route [eg 90 degrees form the beach] therefore no speed => lost.

out on the water the waves were approx 4 mtrs!!![not kidding] never seen anything like this [sailing for 20 yrs]this close to the beach [ push off from beach was 1,5 hrs before high tide = highest waves here]

Hi Boomer, you are MaartenU right? Did anyone of your posse make it to the start?

Anyway, the course is not 54NM but 35NM. We had this discussion all weekend, I measured it on the map and it really is 35NM .The leaders must have averaged around 17kts, who says tornados are dated?

The wind and surf where blowing straight onshore and didnt allow you to build enough speed to punch through. We were just lucky to find a boat-free place on the beach.

For those interested, I wrote a report at TheBeachcats.com, http://tinyurl.com/bd3mj

(Ladies, please stop the Jensen beach Catfight OK?)

yes we went out at 11, to the north of the tent, we got out fine (just one hit or so), but then had no wind whatsoever on the water and were almost pushed back inshore... we had plenty of wind later that day though, and rain, lightning and torn sails, 90km south of texel. quite a weekend!

and, in a reply to the first poster, and to end the discussion on wave height etc. there will be a dvd released from this year's round texel that anyone can buy, and it should surely include the carnage in the surf.

Hey Tony, you're right about da person behind....

None of our posse did go, we didn't even try to. We ended up helping crashed boats and launching others.
Respect for you single-handed boats (without a jib !) to go out there.
A lot of boats with hulls like the FX-One (flat bottom) had problems with not being able to pierce through the waves. The old boats like the HC16 and HC18 had more chances.

The trick KennethFS used, is the trick everbody needed, to get through the surf unharmed. Just sail parallel to a wave and than with speed go through it.

A lot of sailors made the mistake to try to lower their rudders (even on lee-side!) between the waves.

Regarding the distance. I wonder where the 53 Nm comes from.... It's maybe an option to start from Walibi Flevo

In those surf conditions, and if I have a choice, I would prefer to be on a boardless cat like the Prindle 16 or Nacra 5.7 Mostly because they drift far less than a boarded cat and you can sail (steer) them more easily on the sails alone. And of course because the boat is rather well balanced with the skeg or asym hull in as little as a foot of water you can really power these boats up and punch through the surf. And of course these boats track noticeable better.

I think the guys deserving out most respect are the boarded singlehanders and the more modern boats with very round keel lines. Because every little wave or gust will make them drift or turn.

Wouter

There is a picture of that Worrell (You say it was Jensen beach) where you can see a I-20 being hit by a breaking wave while the skipper is far back on the trampoline and on his knees facing back and fiddling with to get the rudders down. His crew is very far on the hull itself and way in front of the mainbeam. The crew is actually holding the bridle wires to keep himself on the boat. Of THAT crew I most definately said that they were stupid.
I can't find this particular picture easily but here is another one showing a crew near the bridle wire while the skipper is way back on the boat



So why is the decribed crew stupid ?

-1- The skipper wasn't paying attention to the oncoming breaking wave = stupid.
-2- The skipper is far back on the boat and on his knees; the precursors for capsizing backwards, being thrown off or ... (2 times stupid)
-3- Forcing his crew way out front in a really unpractical position. What will happen if the wave puts you in a tack ? The crew will be washed off the boat and then the skipper will have to navigate the surf all by himself = Stupid
-4- The skipper looked like his was trying to get his leeward rudder down as well. = stupid in a surf like that. The luff rudder you can save when you get pushed back by a quickly pulling on the tiller the leeward one will must like jam between sandbar and stern and either rip your stern out of break your rudder setup. = not smart. The stupid part about it that you waste FAR TOO MUCH time getting the leeward rudder down when you should be concentrating on picking up speed and spending as little time in the surf as absolutely necessary. And from memory I see that neither daggerbaord was in the wells, both were laying on the trampoline, but I could be wrong here. IF so than of course the crew was nowhere near them and without a little of the daggerboard sticking out under water you a very unbalanced boat than wants to luff all the time. Be smart and set a little daggerboard and just damaging that over flipping the whole boat and damaging the whole boat. If you are not willing to do that then DON'T go out.


Best way to deal with surf like these is

-1- Speed is EVERYTHING. You may even ride a wave under an angle as long as you have sufficient speed
-2- ride by steering on your sails and with only the help of the luff rudder. Keep the lee rudder out.
-3- Both crew in the luff hull and both near the mainbeam. NOT in front of it, NOT near the rearbeam and then just sail the boat. If they rudder kicks up but you still have speed than stay where you are and adjust you sail setting to keep speed and some form of steerage. Slowing the boat down and get to the rudders = STUPID, Getting the leeward rudder = DOUBLE STUPID
-4- If you have a jib then never uncleat is and have it pulling all the way. Steer, if you have to by sheeting in a out on the mainsail. Don't centre your main traveller, keep it out as well.
-5- Set as soon as possible the luff board. Even a little board in the water makes a noticeably difference and makes steering by the sails alot easier. Yes even 6 to 7 inches will make a difference and you only need water a foot deep to stay clear of the bottom that way.

Of THAT crew I said/wrote that they were handling the surf in a stupid way. And I will never retract my statements about that situation. If anybody thinks that this crew wasn't stupid then they are free to try to sail a big surf in the same way. Just make sure you have alot of green in the bank before doing it.

Wouter

Boomer,

Do I understand it correctly that Mitch Booth himself quoted you the 140 kg all-up sailing weight of the Hobie Fox special concept ? As in the boat that was on the beach that day being exactly that ?

Thanks

Wouter

I'm not worrying.

Thing is that I find that alot of people think that I said things that I never did. Next thing I'll have Mitch Booth phoning me asking why I called him a beginner or said that he is above himself. Of course I never said either thing, but you however did and then implicitly contributed those statements to me. Similar to the "did your your wife recover alright from your beating" - questions.

I'll send you a private message with my phone number.

Wouter

Correct, Quote from the man himself. Same weight as mentioned in an earlier topic on this forum.

My fully equipped FX-One from last year weighs the same.....
But with no result, this thing can be burried for a year or more.

I dunno what all the fuzz is about regarding Texel waves or Worrel waves. Seeing all the mayhem at Texel this year live I noticed that a lot of sailors were lowering the leeward rudder or daggerboard as well just before flipping over by a big wave.
I can't tell any reason for crashing or stupid behaviour from pictures, so I can't make any comparison.

So end this discussion, it makes no sense. Instead, tell me some more about international long-distances races. Next year the Statue of Liberty race will be high on my list.

See how long it takes to guess "Wouter", after 30 questions I came very very close...

Give Lord Vader a fair change and answer all questions thruthfully, or face the consequences of the Dark Side
May the Force be with you

http://www.sithsense.com/ (Turn up your volume to hear Vader's smartass remarks!)

Wouter, your usage of the word "stupid" is extremely insulting and I am very offended by the context of your post above.