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The 2-Minute Tack #51755
06/27/05 01:12 AM
06/27/05 01:12 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
NW Washington
Danno Offline OP
member
Danno  Offline OP
member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
NW Washington
I need help tacking. I sail a nacra 450, 1-up and just learning. Only experience besides the 4 trips in the 450 are 12 trips in a Force 5.

Here's how I do it in 5-15 knots:

Sail close hauled, traveller centered (cuz I don't want to mess with it). Ease the tiller out until I'm facing the wind. Uncleat the burdened cleat and make it tight on the new side. Boat stops, not able to tack. Sometimes I drift backwards. I backwind the jib. 2 or 3 minutes later and I'm off!

I've got Rick's video and don't see what I'm doing wrong. I also was surprised that I could tack better in 10 knots compared to 15. At least I know how to park

Any suggestions?

Danno


Danno
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: The 2-Minute Tack [Re: Danno] #51756
06/27/05 03:46 AM
06/27/05 03:46 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
I dont know your boat, but some immediate toughts after reading your description:

Dont bring in the mainsheet to quickly on the new tack, get the boat going again before you sheet in. Sheeting out about 40cm should be enough.
Dont hurry over to the new side (unless you risk capsize), stay on the old windward hull.
Take care to steer trough the whole tack, dont let the rudders straighten out.

Good luck!

Re: The 2-Minute Tack [Re: Danno] #51757
06/27/05 05:23 AM
06/27/05 05:23 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
What do you mean by "uncleat the burdened cleat and make it tight on the new side"? It sounds like you are talking about the jib.

Re: The 2-Minute Tack [Re: Danno] #51758
06/27/05 06:44 AM
06/27/05 06:44 AM
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 29
Netherlands
Marc Woudenberg Offline
newbie
Marc Woudenberg  Offline
newbie
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 29
Netherlands
Having had a N450 my self, the trick is not to loose boat speed. The N450 and ist predecessor N4.5 have a keel, no daggerboard to pivot around.
Turning into the tack not too abrubtly. Keep the jib out on the side of the previuous course as long as possible to pull the bows around. Only cleat it for the new course after the main flips over to the other side. The main should be sheeted in only slowly to pick up.
To get you on the right tack floating backwards, apply opposite rudder. This pushes the sterns in the direction you want rather than aiming the bows.
Good luck.


Marc Woudenberg
T49/F16 Ned302
Re: The 2-Minute Tack [Re: Danno] #51759
06/27/05 07:11 AM
06/27/05 07:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,296
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,296
South Carolina
Danno,

If your jib remains cleated and backwinded for even a second, it will stop the boat. Make sure that as soon as the jib collapses when it gets close to the wind that it is uncleated. The timing on moving the jib is important - too soon and you are loosing valuable speed into the tack - too late and the jib will push the boat backwards. As the other folks said too - don't put the tension back in the mainsheet until the boat is moving and you are moving your weight forward again. You want some twist and belly in the main while the boat is accelerating back to full speed.

Your weight placement on that boat will probably be important too. Make sure you have the crew weight as far aft as possible when tacking. This will help to lift the bows clear of the water so they don't have to push a lot of water as they turn. To see this affect exagerated, turn hard while reaching and you will see how much water the bows have to push when turning. Moving your weight back will lift the bows so the boat doesn't encounter quite as much resistance while it turns.


Jake Kohl
Re: The 2-Minute Tack [Re: Jake] #51760
06/27/05 07:14 AM
06/27/05 07:14 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Danno also have a bent rudderstock, so the rudders are not aligned. This might be part of the problem..

Se the "Rudder Tubing Bent" thread.

Re: The 2-Minute Tack [Re: Danno] #51761
06/27/05 07:52 AM
06/27/05 07:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 885
Crofton, MD
Chris9 Offline
old hand
Chris9  Offline
old hand
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 885
Crofton, MD
When I had a Hobie 16, I found that in most conditions (*), backwinding the jib is a really good way to stop the boat, prolonging your tack by forcing you to sail backwards. I have found that you are better served by releasing the jib as soon as it wants to travel around the mast, then trim it on the new tack for power, not as tight as you would have it for close-hauled course at full speed. You may want to easy the main a considerable bit just after you come head-to-wind. I found that about 6’ was the right amount of sheet to let out on the Hobie 16. I believe this is important because of the change in apparent wind as my boat came through head-to-wind. It was going so much slower, although still moving forward, that if your main sheet is full on you couldn’t get down to the new tack and if you did the acceleration was slow because the top of the sail was over trimmed, way stalled!

You noted a difference between 10 and 15. It might be the wave state. Even with our dagger board boat, n6.0, in waves, big waves, we end up sailing backwards sometimes when I pick the wrong time to tack in a set of waves or the jib is cleated on the old tack for second to long. Also, any time attempting to bring the jib to the new tack side to early always, always stop us! Also, with the n6.0, I easy about a foot or so of main sheet after head-to-wind. When the wind is blowing 15, the backed jib may be stopping you much more effectively then when its only blowing 10.

(*) Your wind range with relatively flat water. I recently had two different crew on board for a race. One of them backed the jib once very appropriately during a race. The other tried to back the jib on the first few tack with my response being “Please don’t back the jib.” I think I said please the first couple of times.


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
Re: The 2-Minute Tack [Re: Chris9] #51762
06/27/05 10:10 AM
06/27/05 10:10 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
NW Washington
Danno Offline OP
member
Danno  Offline OP
member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
NW Washington
Thanks, everybody :-)

Even though I'm cutting my teeth, it sounds like you folks sometimes stop during a turn too. Makes me feel a bit better.

Some clarification:

I pretty much ignore letting out the main until I'm on the new tack. If successful, I don't try to sail close hauled until I've got a bit of speed.

The only time I backwind the jib is when I'm stopped, not before. I unleat the jib, hold it tight until it starts luffing, then pull it tight and cleat it on the opposite side. Most the time it doesn't fill on the new tack because the boat doesn't turn that far. I do stay on the old side until the jib fills on the new side.

One thing about the jib: I'm not sure how tight to set it, so I just pull it sorta tight.

Sounds like I need to experiment with how fast to turn and keep my weight back.

Thanks so much,
Danno


Danno
Re: The 2-Minute Tack [Re: Danno] #51763
06/27/05 11:05 AM
06/27/05 11:05 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Danno, I would really recommend you to give the mainsheet about 40cm of slack when the jib wants to cross over. Keeping the main sheeted all the time is a big "no-no" when tacking (unless you want to park the boat of course)

Re: The 2-Minute Tack [Re: Danno] #51764
06/27/05 04:43 PM
06/27/05 04:43 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
jollyrodgers Offline
enthusiast
jollyrodgers  Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 307
maui
if it's taking you 2 minutes to tack in 15 mph winds, maybe you should just plan on a backtack.
on a h14 it's normal proceedure in big waves and wind.
just get head to wind and reverse the rudders w/ the sails backwinded. once you are backing up it only takes a second for the bows to swing around then you are of once sheeted in on the new tack.
just getting head to wind can be a problem if it's really rough, so there is no shame in a planned backtack.

Re: The 2-Minute Tack [Re: jollyrodgers] #51765
06/27/05 08:41 PM
06/27/05 08:41 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
NW Washington
Danno Offline OP
member
Danno  Offline OP
member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
NW Washington
Thanks, Rolf and JR.

Rolf:

I'll try letting out the main as you said. I know that's what you're supposed to do when you tack. My view is that the boat stops before there's any wind filling the sail. Or if it does fill with wind, then I should be well into the new tack and could let it out then.

JR:

Thanks for another idea.

Danno


Danno
Re: The 2-Minute Tack [Re: jollyrodgers] #51766
06/27/05 09:15 PM
06/27/05 09:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,035
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,035
Sebring, Florida.
Since you are not racing, why not do the fun and easy thing, go for a gybe instead of a tack? You just bear off, ease the main way out, get some speed and complete the turn, flip the jib over, trim in the main and off you go.

If you must tack, make sure you keep the tiller hard over until the bows are way off the wind and the main is eased out quite a bit, get the jib over and in asap to help get the bows down, don't trim in the main until you have some speed to steer with or it will round right back up and you will be parked again, but when that happens, you just reverse the rudders so the sterns go the other way, then again, ease the main and get some speed up on the new tack before you trim it in.


Blade F16
#777
Re: The 2-Minute Tack [Re: Danno] #51767
06/28/05 07:50 AM
06/28/05 07:50 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Since you do have the video on roll tacking, you might want to review it again. It sounds like you are not turning the rudders hard enough. That and not releasing the mainsheet when head to wind. Both of these are major errors that will get you head to wind and stop.

Review: You must be sailing close-hauled with main tight. Start your turn with steadily increasing pressure on the helm (If you jam it over, it will stop the boat; if you steer to easily, you will blow off all your speed before you make it through the turn)

And with the mainsheet tight, you are using the tight leech of the main to weathervane your turn into the wind. You must then release the mainsheet a foot or two when you go through the eye of the wind. That eases the leech of the sail -- otherwise it will want to continue weathervaning directly into the wind. That also allows the mast to straighten, making the sail fuller -- this is akin to a race car driver shifting down into 2nd gear from high when going through a tight turn. By easing the main sheet, you are making the sail fuller and more powerful to come out of the turn.

Hope this helps. If not go watch the video some more.
Good luck,
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: The 2-Minute Tack [Re: RickWhite] #51768
06/28/05 07:59 AM
06/28/05 07:59 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,022
Lake Zurich, IL
MarkMT Offline
old hand
MarkMT  Offline
old hand
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,022
Lake Zurich, IL
Hey speaking of the video, didn't Tim tell us the DVD version would be out in April or May. What's the latest on that?

Mark.

Re: The 2-Minute Tack [Re: MarkMT] #51769
06/28/05 08:18 AM
06/28/05 08:18 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 351
Santiago, Chile
Andinista Offline
enthusiast
Andinista  Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 351
Santiago, Chile
I'm not very good at tacking correctly, but the wrong way always works for me: I uncleat the jib late, after it has filled on the other side and helped the boat to cross the wind direction. It doesnīt take long, so the boat wonīt reverse direction.
I think I read this on the Prindle 16 manual, so itīs probably not so wrong
I donīt race though..

Re: The 2-Minute Tack [Re: Andinista] #51770
06/28/05 08:56 AM
06/28/05 08:56 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
NW Washington
Danno Offline OP
member
Danno  Offline OP
member
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 106
NW Washington
Thanks, again, guys!

The video I have is 'total boat handling'. Does the 'upwind sailing' cover tacking single-handed?


Danno
Re: The 2-Minute Tack [Re: Andinista] #51771
06/28/05 10:14 AM
06/28/05 10:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,296
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,296
South Carolina
Andinista,

That is probably some good advice until the rudder problems are ironed out. Leaving the jib cleated on the wrong side will help to turn the bows through the wind - but it makes for a very slow tack and reduces boat speed dramatically.


Jake Kohl
Re: The 2-Minute Tack [Re: Jake] #51772
06/28/05 01:19 PM
06/28/05 01:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 351
Santiago, Chile
Andinista Offline
enthusiast
Andinista  Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 351
Santiago, Chile
That's why I said I donīt race...
It always works, so I use this method if things are complicated or if I feel too lazy..
But Iīll try the advices on this post, I wasnīt paying attention on easing the main (except for reverse direction turns). Didnīt think about moving the weight back either.

Re: The 2-Minute Tack [Re: MarkMT] #51773
06/28/05 01:30 PM
06/28/05 01:30 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
On the DVD of all 5 videos, Tim was a bit delayed with a project on his real job. He working on it now.

The Upwind and Roll Tacking video goes much more in depth on how to tack fast.

And YES, backwinding does stop the boat. Racing sailors don't want the boat to stop.., thus the reason we developed this roll-tacking procedure that truely works. The Prindle Manual was probably written before the development of the cat roll tack.

And yes it works great for uni-rigs.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com

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