Mark, if I remember correctly, I just turn in my copy with the registration form. Never paid attention to what the other sailors did. Since we all sign the Release and Indemnity Agreement, see the following on the Div. 4 site, http://www.div4.hobieclass.com/default.asp?MenuID=Schedule/c10852/3251, we are individually responsible. This is the hold harmless agreement for HCA, IHCA, and Event Organizers, etc. The fact that the individual sailors state they have Liability Insurance is just an indicator of their responsiblity, similar to Auto or Home Owners insurance.

Caleb

Hi Caleb

Your point about responsibility really got me to think about the underlying issue.

We have moved from the days of Sail Boat Racing as a Corinthian sport, where men/women of honor competed according to the rules, called their own fouls and settled anything else in a protest room.

NOW look at what we are doing! We simply don’t place any value in honoring your word in this game! Back in the day, the term “take responsibility” was enough for the game of sailboat racing. This was understood… now it must be defined and added to the US Sailing prescriptions!

I guess we felt that sailors were a bit slimey… so we add the rule on liability in the NOR… Must have $ XXX amount of Liability insurance from a third party carrier. (seemed like a small innocuous step at the time… most of us in fact had liability insurance… why not everyone… right?) I know I added it to the NOR’s that I have written in the past!

But instead of men/women of honor playing the sport… We now were well onto the slippery slope downwards. Next up.. Oh… the nationals are really pressure packed… I don't trust the competitors to actually behave themselves honorably under the gun! … Since they have the integrity of a snake, their signature is worthless! We must CHECK the insurance bit. So, It would appear that things are so rotten in Denmark that we have to get a CARNAC to validate the piece of paper you present at the national registration desk and hope CARNAC correctly says… “You … are not lying about your proof of insurance. Enter!”

So, I guess by inspecting the paperwork... you will make the snake go to some extreme measures to create the paperwork supporting his lie. But look where that leaves us… EVEN if there are no snakes in the regatta… We are choosing to view the sailors as if they don’t have integrity. Guess what?… they play down to this low standard. (Hell!… we now need on the water judges to stop the cheating on the water and the first one caught is the USA Sailor of the year… her explanation… she was trying new techniques to not exactly sail… but rather wind row… and did not know if it would be called legal or not...)

And the bar for our integrity gets set lower and lower… Now clubs are going to collect the liability information on registration forms. Wow!… Now they are saying... you know... we don't even trust you SOB's enough to take responsibly for your actions and share information when appropriate. Not to worry, if that happens, we the organizers have the opportunity to get in the middle of the dispute since we collected the information. What’s next… Post a bond so we can go race each other?

So... my philosophical question is … IF sailors can't be trusted about responsibility for liability insurance. ... Why the hell would you want to go racing against them? Do they let their buddies off with a foul at the nationals and don’t hail protest? Are they are not just as likely to lie and weasel out of their responsibility any way they can?

What people forget is...
If you as a party to the accident simply decides that you were not responsible for the accident, No matter … what the protest committee, instant justice on the sand, bar consensus whatever else declares! … You can simply tell your liability carrier “NO... don't settle it”.... Have them sue me, personally ... I want my day in court! I am not bringing my insurance coverage into play. (Sound familiar Windy Hill). A new standard for responsibility!

So… what I have discovered for myself is that I am really upset with the loss of integrity in our word. The details of this liability coverage crap, the gaming of the protest committees, all of the crap that can be spun as … getting and edge on my competitors or walking that thin line of the rules is caused by a lack of integrity in keeping our word.

What a sad state of affairs. Having stepped on that slippery slope where we don’t hold everyone to the integrity of their word … (or opened that can of worms about liability as Mary put it) … Look where we sink to…

I guess I answered my own question that started this thread ... What is the point of collecting insurance info? Sadly, it might be needed because we have no integrity in our word and so it is just a lame attempt to shame us into keeping our word. This just makes me sad.

Sigh… Mark <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Note added: The Annapolis Yacht Club which probably has owners and boats worth MILLIONS does not require or even ask for insurance proof.
AYC NOR
They just expect you to honor your word...

Mark, that particular NOR for the Annapolis Yacht Club might not be the best example, since it says those Wednesday night races are open ONLY to club members.

Maybe the club bylaws require all members to carry liability insurance on their boats.

Or maybe it is assumed that the members all have enough money to cover their obligations even if they do not have insurance.

Or maybe it is expected that peer pressure alone will keep the members honest as far as meeting their obligations if they cause damage to another boat. (Fear of being ostracized by their fellow members, or even kicked out of the club.)

However, do they require liability insurance for non-members at an open event?

I just skimmed through the by-laws and policies for our sailing club, and I could not find anything about requiring liability insurance on the member boats. But I think it would probably be a good idea. Like what if a member boat at the club docks breaks loose and damages the docks or other boats or non-club property in the area? Or what if a boat in the drysail area blows over and damages other boats or flies through the clubhouse windows and lands in the dining room?

That is a different thing from multihull fleets that gather to race at various locations and then disperse back to their homes. People may show up whom you have never seen before and may never see again. You may have people coming from other countries, and if they cause damage to other boats, how are you going to collect from them once they have returned to their home country?

You have people borrowing boats for regattas. You have people chartering boats for regattas. If you borrow or charter a boat, do you have to make sure here is liability insurance on the boat itself and also have to have personal liability insurance for yourself?

The more I think about it, the more complicated this gets. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> And the more I think about the possibilities, the more paranoid I am becoming about sailing and about letting other people use my boat -- or me using somebody else's boat. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It is sad.

But what if your “big-time screw up” causes you no loss, but injures someone else?

Honor among gentlemen (or gentlewomen) is a beautiful thing - until there is a disagreement over who is at fault, or no one is at fault, or the damages suffered reach beyond the value of the boat. In the grand scheme of things, our equipment is not very expensive. A brand new Hobie Tiger at full retail is still only about 15K. Compare this with sending someone to the hospital with severe injuries because you "screwed up big time" and $15K is a pee hole in the snow. My 5-year-old son spent 3 hours in the emergency room with croup and it cost me - my insurance company - $2,000.

Two years ago, a brief but intense storm launched my H20 (which was tied down with sand screws) down the beach like a 400-pound tumbleweed. Before breaking apart, it crashed into two large, expensive campers causing damage to both. I can only imagine the injuries had it hit a person. I don't know what the final claim was, but I’m sure that damage to others’ property was far greater than the cost of replacing my boat. Had it hit someone, the financial cost could have been in the millions - I can't even imagine the emotional costs. The accident was certainly not my fault. I took reasonable precautions when I tied the boat down, removed the sails, etc. But I'm damn glad I had insurance to cover everyone else’s damage - as well as my own.

The incident with the H20 sailors at the 2006 Nationals is another excellent example. Luckily, no one was badly hurt and both teams went on to the finish the week, but what if the timing or angles had been just slightly different and the starboard boat, instead of slicing off the port boat's transom, hit one of the crew and sliced off a leg or killed someone. I’ll bet that the liability in that situation would shift the other way - and that's not to say that the starboard boat from Oklahoma was at fault. It was an accident. But had the worst happened, they would probably be held responsible.

So why do regatta organizers require participants to have insurance? Because the unimaginable can, and does, happen, and they, as hosts of the event, want to be sure that everyone is able to take equal responsibility. Would you have the resources to settle a claim if you "screwed up big time," or through no fault of your own, badly injured or killed someone with your boat? I have no idea, neither does anyone else at an event that you attend. There is no guarantee of honesty or sufficient coverage, but when the regatta organizers require that you show proof, they are taking reasonable care that you, and everyone else at the event, does have the resources and with that one move covers themselves and hopefully everyone else.

One other note:

Not requiring proof of insurance has nothing to do with trust or honor. The very fact that the boats and their owners are worth millions suggests that everyone has insurance. Anyone with money who does not have insurance will soon find themselves without money.

Real quick.. my liability insurance covers My Liability.. eg ME! This is what I meant by... I buy liablity for ME!
eg my screw up injures you... and my insurance pays off.
so your liability covered you for the damage your boat caused.. So... Had you had no liablity coverage... you would /could have been responsible for the damage... You would have had to pay out of pocket.... Had you refused to pay... the camper people would take you to court, get a judgement, and then try to collect.

Also... your insurance company COULD have said... nope... not paying... it was an act of god...Everybody pays their own bill for an act of god! Our client had no responsiblity (eg you). The camper people will have to use their insurance to pay their damage. Since they won't be happy... they will then sue you personally.... you get to sue your insurance company for not paying for your liablity as you believe they should and it just gets ugly.

You make the best argument for the policy I have supported for years.

So...

Yup... I used to take this position.... Made perfect sense at the time...

But.. Is it the proper role of the Regatta committe?

I am begining to think that smarter people then I... (eg those people with lots of money at stake who hire smart lawyers who know the rules) have it right. They have decided that NO... this is not a proper role for the Regatta organizor. Leave the liablity issue up to the individuals involved. The ISAF and US Sailing rules speak to responsibility and leave all matters of liabilty to others completely outside of the Regatta and Protest committes.

In the end... if liability company doesn't want to pay... or the one party doesn't want to pay.... you are going to court to resolve it. Even then... ask OJ how much cash he has given to Nicole's father?

So... do you trade off undermining people's integrity of their word... for the warm and fuzzy feeling that at least everybody on the water at least showed a peice of paper that said they had 100K liablity coverage.

I don't get your point about the AYC policy... Are we cat sailors different because we don't have million dollar boats? The property we sail is cheap... its the personal injury and lost wages, etc etc that will cost Millions.. that 100K coverage is gone in a heartbeat! next up... your house.

(I think you would be CRAZY to have any boat... racing or not and not take out liablity coverage.)

Yes, we are different. I'm sure some of us can claim a million-dollar net worth, but you're assuming that every catsailor racing has a house, or any resources for that matter. How many cat sailors racing around out there have nothing beyond a few hundred dollers in the bank and a hand-to-mouth paycheck keeping them afloat (sorry about that metaphore). A previous poster to this thread already admitted that his sailing was on "the scraps of his budget." As you correctly point out, anyone racing a catamaran is crazy - and in my mind morally suspect - to go without insurance. I'm not implying that budget-scraps racer is going without insurance, but are there people out there that do go without? I know there are. But I don't think our honorability and honesty as a class (in this case sailors) has changed recently. There have always been people out there who shirk responsibility, take chances and put others at risk when they have little to loose. It's more to do with the litigous nature of our society in general. The million-dollar boys at AYC know this better than anyone and almost certainly have protected themselves. That's my point.

But going back to the original subject of this thread. There is no rule I could find stating that race organizers will require proof of insurance coverage from competitors. Just like there's no rule requiring them to serve competitors food, or hand out T shirts or awards. All that stuff is a service they provide to make the event more comfortable and fun for everyone. Like the food they serve, the quality of this service is better at some events than others, but as it says in most canned NORs, the decission to race is at the sole discression of the competitor. If you don't like the way the event is being run - and maybe this means a bad burger on Saturday night, or poor oversite of competitors' insurance - it's your choice to stay on the beach.

For me, I'm glad race organizers ask for proof of insurance and I'm happy to provide it.

Fewer and fewer venues are allowing events of a racing nature at all, and those few that remain are requiring more and more "protection". This, undoubtedly, is due to the rise in litigation amongst present and former users of the venues.

It may not be too far off before the venue owners will get so paranoid as to require an obscene amount of insurance for anyone who owns a boat and searches for the regatta site on mapquest or google.

Whether or not you have property coverage (which Mark explains) is your choice. The ability to pay for injuries/damage CAUSED BY you (or your property) is what should be understood as an imperative. Don't forget - your own crew's injuries can end up your responsibility as well...

Those mega-rich folk can be self-insured, but I doubt they got mega-rich to start with by not being insured at some point. There are too many "what-if" scenarios.

But, Mark's original comments were questioning why the regatta organizers should be sticking their nose in "my business". Should this be extrapolated to mean that the PRO shouldn't dictate what equipment or skills the competitors should have (like PFDs or basic sailing skills), or verify that they are present?

I mean, let's take this to the extreme - I'm a good swimmer, why does the PRO require me to wear (not just carry) a PFD? If I croke, big whup, right? Should I be able to waive the requirement because after all, this would only affect me personally, and nobody else...?

I disagree and believe that the PRO must take steps to ensure a safe event for all participants, spectators, volunteers, etc. Part of this duty to act is to ensure that a minimum level of care is exercised, whether or not the participants "feel" it is justifiable.

Kinda makes you want to run out and organize a regatta, doesn't it <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />