I'll check and get back with you...although I'm pretty sure they just make the fabric there. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I wonder if the below would be applicable to 2007 prices?

>December 17, 2002
EU Imposes $83M in Fines for Price-Fixing


BRUSSELS, Belgium (AP) - The European Commission on Tuesday fined 11 companies $83 million in two separate price-fixing scandals involving graphite and spices.

In the graphite cartel, eight companies were assessed a total of 60.6 million euro ($62.4 million)for violating EU competition rules between 1993 and 1998.

The Commission said that a two-year investigation found that the companies held regular meetings to divvy up the market and keep prices at inflated levels. Specialty graphites are used in everything from engineering to electronics.

Germany's SGL Carbon AG received the highest fine of 27.75 million euro ($28.57 million), while Japan's Toyo Tanso must pay 10.79 million euro ($11.11 million).

Other fines levied include 6.97 million euro ($7.18 million) for France's Carbon Lorraine SA, 6.97 million euro ($7.18 million) for Japan's Tokai Carbon Co., and 3.58 million euro ($3.69 million) for Ibiden Co. and Nippon Steel Chemical Co. also of Japan. Another two Japanese firms, Itech and Intech Inc. were fined 980,000 euro ($1 million).

SGL's fine was the highest ``because it was the ringleader,'' the Commission said, while the other companies got reductions in exchange for their cooperation in the probe. U.S.-based GraphTech International Ltd. was given immunity ``because it revealed the cartel,'' the Commission said.
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Obviously because it doesn't weigh #400 <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Tiger Mike

How is the A class so popular?????????????
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Obviously because it doesn't weigh #400

It's true. Since I can launch and retrieve by myself I'm getting a lot of boat time. If I have 3 hours to spare on a weekday afternoon I can toss the boat in and have 2 hours of sailing. Do this twice a week and it's priceless. Still, $25k? Please don't think that all A Catters are this rich. Ed

When I was thinking about getting an A cat last year, one of the guys mentioned the possibility of a 200lb. class. The idea was to keep cost down and to keep the classes "home builder" roots.

Is that possibility still alive?

No, that will not happen ever. The class has proven that the boat can be built at the 165 lb weight with durable and strong platforms. If anything, as technology gets better, you might see the next generation consistently weigh about 5 kilos (~10 lbs) less as many of the new boats are already sailing with 4-6 lbs of corrector weights.

While the price of the Gel Tek is very expensive, US sailors seem to forget the excellent product that Matt McDonald is producing with the Vectorworks/Bim XJ. I recently delivered one for Charlie Ogeltree to sail this year. I let Don Brennan at DIVERSIFIED MARINE in Mobile take a look at it. Don is now the US SAILING team boatwright. He was extremely impressed with the boat and the finish. Matt is selling new boats with a sailaway price of less than $20K and has let some lightly used demos go for less than $17K. While still expensive, you have to look at what you think your usage versus expense ratio will be. A lot of us A-Catters justify paying the $$$ because it is so easy to get time on the water (lightweight, simple, one sailor) and there is no boat that will bring a grin to your face like an A-Class.

Bob Hodges

All good points. A slightly different perspective, $17k is the price of a modest new car. $26k is the price of a little fancier car. If money is an issue drive an older car. I like my '97 Tacoma just fine.

I DO NOT justify or rationalize sailing. It just IS !! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Pete,
There are 2 things to consider here. First, anyone capable of home building an A cat, can build one at min weight now if they do it right. Cal Fuller was building Plywood A’s with aluminum mast, beams crossbars etc at 200 lbs 25 years ago. Many of these are still sailing. I think it would be possible to build a Ply hull with carbon beams and masts boat pretty close to 165 lbs.

Second point is what we should be discussing is not purchase price, but yearly cost of ownership. My last A cat 2000 (Boyer Mark 4) cost me less then 1000$ per year to own for 3 years and I sailed it about 150 days total.
Last Fall I bought a used 2005 XJ. I think that it will cost me ~2000$ year to own as long as I don’t smash it into someone.
You only have one sail to buy and they last along time if you use an older sail for practice. New mains with battens run about 1500$ delivered. Compared to a spinnaker equipped boat the sail replacement costs are cheap and you get great sails.


Cheers
eric

Well put.

The discussion in this thread is just to interesting to ignore !

Allow me to run by each point in chronological order




Yes, and it is called Formula 16.




But it will be not be as dependable and strong as the modern 26.000 bucks A-cats. 3 mm ply and skimming big time on the bulkheads is making these timber boats pretty sensitive. The difference between a 3 mm timber skin (A-cat) and a 4 mm skin (F16) is very significant. The latter will feel and be twice as stiff and resistant against damage from sideways loads.





What a BS ! I can get a fully rigged F16 for what ? 15.000 USD tops. The A-cat will be 20.000 that means I can replace my 1500 USD main twice and also have two 800 USD replacement spinnaker and still have 400 USD left in my pocket for a replacement jib before I reach the A-cat retail price with only 1 mainsail. Making almost 3 suits of sails again only 1 mainsail on the A. How much time will this cover, 10 years ?

After 4 years of sailing I'm still on my first mainsail and spinnaker. And every class will "do a long time with a main if you are only using your old main for practice". That argument is not in anyway unique to the A-cat class.

And of course only the A-cat boat get great sails delivered by sailmakers, the rest of us just have to make do with good or acceptable sails ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

Isn't the diversity here awesome! Look at all the different boats we sail. I sail an FX-ONE and love it for what it is. I like to use the car analogy to try to understand why different sailors sail different boats.
Some people like to drive Hondas. They get the job done. They start everytime, get good mileage, and are relatively inexpensive.
I prefer to drive a Dodge Cummins. It's reliable, can tow a a lot of stuff and gets relatively good mileage. It's a bit more pricey than a Honda, but it suits my needs of owning Surf City Catamarans.
Now there are some guys out there that want the best top of the line Ferrari. I don't judge them or tell them they should've bought the Honda. I just understand that that car suits their needs. Whatever their needs are.
That's why people on a message board can opine all day long about what boat THEY think is the best and why. Meanwhile, people will be at my shop buying Hobie Bravos for their kids, Catalina 27's so they can go on a weekend trip to Monterey, Hobie 16's to race one design, and arguably the best A-class cats produced in the world The Gel-Tek Flyer 2.
Isn't diversity great!

[color:"blue"] [/color] "Woot" “Don't let anybody convince you that the choice is limited to only two alternatives !
Question: Whats up with 400 pound boats and $ 26,000 A Cats ?
How about a 240 lbs / $ 14.000 screamer ? Lightweight like an A,…..”

What a BS ! I can get a fully rigged F16 for what ? 15.000 USD tops. The A-cat will be 20.000 that means I can replace my 1500 USD main twice and also have two 800 USD replacement spinnaker and still have 400 USD left in my pocket for a replacement jib before I reach the A-cat retail price with only 1 mainsail. Making almost 3 suits of sails again only 1 mainsail on the A. How much time will this cover, 10 years ?

After 4 years of sailing I'm still on my first mainsail and spinnaker. And every class will "do a long time with a main if you are only using your old main for practice". That argument is not in anyway unique to the A-cat class.”

[color:"blue"] [/color]
[color:"black"] [/color] First of all, comparing a 165 lb 18 ft long boat to a 16 ft 240 lb boat is somewhat absurd. That would be like saying you could get a 14 ft boat that only weighed 350 lbs and is light weight like a F16. Now if the F16’s weighed in at around 150 lbs, I might buy your light weight argument. Ditto the cost argument. If A cats were 50% heavier, they would be a lot cheaper also. Compare apples to oranges or it is meaningless.

There is a huge difference in the feel and sailing characteristics of a 165 lb boat and a 240 lb boat. Same thing when you go from 240 lbs to 330lb Hobie 16+spinnaker,H17, (F17), Hobie FX-1, nacra 5.5 Uni. If you don’t appreciate the difference then don’t buy one. Think about this:

A class 165 lbs (lightest) 19,000$ (110% more) 2006 DPN 64.6 Fastest
F-16 240 lbs (45% heavier) 15,000$ (66% more) 2006 DPN 67.1 (3.8% slower)
H 16+spi320 lbs (94% heavier) 9,000$ (baseline) 2006 DPN 72.9 (13% slower)

H Wave+spi 250 lbs (51% heavier) 4,400$ (105% less) 2006 DPN 88 (36% slower)

It all kind of makes sense doesn’t it?


As far as sail costs go, maybe you have some incredible unobtanium sailcloth, but my personal experience with sails is as follows:
Competitive lifespan of a Mainsail 60-75days, Jib 30 days, spinnaker 30 days.
For me this worked out to a jib and spinnaker every year and a main every other year.
I have owned catamaran sails by Goodall, Glaser, Ulman, Smyth, Shore, EP, and HobieCat. For ME personally, this worked out to be around 8-10 sails over the 4 years I own a boat. Now I am down to about 2 sails per 4 years. Your mileage may vary.

Sail fast, sail light
Eric

When both boats reach the finish line at the same time then they are both "oranges" (or "apples", whatever you prefer).

The rest of the argument is about which one does so more efficiently.


60-75 days per mainsail ? That would be 2 or 3 seasons in my book.
30 days for a jib may well have been true for the old overlapping kind made of dacron, but the selftackers seem to last alot longer in my opinion. Partly because they can now be made out of pentex too because there is no more flapping about etc. With respect to jib loads, I'm not seeing much degrading of the shape because of it. I honestly feel that the new jib setups are much more stable then the older ones. The spinnaker sail is most definately the one that ends it competitive life much sooner then the others, but then again they do last. So you trick to using only the old spi in basic training and the new one for racing will cut down on the related costs.

But my basic point was ofcourse that all the savings one can make on the sails when one sails an A-cat are meaningless when just getting the boat itself will cost you many times more. That difference needs to be won back first before "cheap sails" will start to favour the A.





We all know that the F16 DPN is bogus. In the rest of the world we are sailing of the F18 handicap or just 1% away from it. ONLY US DPN thinks this needs to be 7% slower then the F18's. I'm not wasting anymore breath on that issue.

Personally I can buy a new Hobie 16 with spi for about 14.500 Euro's, for the same price I can also get any of the F16's. I don't know why the Hobie 16's are so much more cheaper in the USA, but I know that they are.





Perfectly, like SurfCity said :"Isn't diversity great!"




I think having so many sails for one boat type is a little bit silly. Even if it is a sloop with spinnaker boat. This means that you had 3 suits of sails (mainsail, jib, spinnaker) in only 4 years of sailing. Why would you need 3 mainsails on this boat when you suddenly can make do with only 2 mainsails on the A-cat in the same timespan ? Do mainsails wear down quicker on a spinnaker boat ? By the same token a singlehanded F16 will not need any jibs and so we can strike those from the listing altogether.

Personally I feel too many people concentrate too much on getting new sails and too little on getting their "old" sails to work well. Also I feel that 90 % of the sailors out there are not held back by having old sails but rather by having insufficient sailing skills. For them it will hardly make a difference if they buy a new suit of sail every 2 years. For truly competitive sailors getting new sails often is significant, but then again they need to buy a new boat every 3 years as well, did we included that in the calculation ?

Now I'm not taking anything away from the A-cats with exception of some eyebrow raising claims.






Yes there is and it is not said that this is in favour of the 165 lbs boat and visa versa ! Different boats for different people and that is what you proved by your listing ones again.


Wouter

What kind of durability do these boats have when there are collisions? Fibre glass can break without much force. I'm just curious. I think I'd be real nervous that first couple of minutes in a crowded race with 25k under me.

A cats don't fair well when hit by heavier boats. However and A cat getting hit by an A cat seems to be aobut the same as 2 I20's hitting each other. If you T bone an A cat at speed, you are going to sink them.

Do you sail at Lake Pepin? I was out there last year at the DN North Americans. Not alot of stuff in Lake city. I did see more eagles every day driving down from Redwing then I had in my whole previus lifetime. Awesome sight.

Cheers,
eric

I agree with Eric's previous post and while carbon is stronger and stiffer than fiberglass, it typically has less impact resistance. Most of the sailors entering the A-class are fairly experienced so it's rare that we see collisions (but they do happen). At the last Midwinters with over 50 boats, there were no incidents at all but at our last Gulfport regatta, a new sailor let his boat get away from him and there was minor damage to his and another boat (but they were both sailing the next day).

In all honesty, I'm more vigilant at larger open class regattas because the experience level is not as high (typically more novice sailors) and we have to keep an eye on the spinnaker boats because their ability to keep clear and see everything downwind is more limited than our boats.

Bob Hodges

Lake City doesn't have a ton to offer. It's a small town. But the lake is the best sailing in the area w/out having to drive 3-4hrs. Its about 40 min from my house so I'm down there semi-frequently.

I don't think I'd deserve an A-Cat. I'd bounce it off of someone and end up with a real mess.

Bob, you just need to be more vigilant with your beam bolts and RI lobster fishermen.

Sorry, couldnt resist.

Bill

Thank you for spreading the word everyone, looks like this container is sold out and we're starting to fill the next. Let me know if you're interested in one of these awesome boats. Congrats to the new owners!

Going back to the price of A-Class boats and the price of carbon.

Until recently aerospace didn't really use a lot of carbon. 100,000 lb here and 250,000 lb there. It was a speciality material.

Now it's different. To support the composite airliners, aircraft builders are buying all the best priced carbon for years in abvance. All that is left for companies that do not have long term contracts are the high priced suppliers. Things should get better by 2010-2011 but, it will probably get worse before then.

To put things in perspective a Boeing Dreamliner, is about 850 A-Cats.

Epoxy/ceder/kevlar is looking better and better