Announcements
New Discussions
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3
Re: Surf City Catamarans and A-Class Cats [Re: carlbohannon] #102542
04/11/07 03:59 PM
04/11/07 03:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
how is that nomex honeycomb core for dent resistance?


Jay

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Surf City Catamarans and A-Class Cats [Re: waterbug_wpb] #102543
04/12/07 09:40 AM
04/12/07 09:40 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 778
Houston
carlbohannon Offline
old hand
carlbohannon  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 778
Houston
No nomex paper honeycomb, ceder with 2-3oz kevlar on the inside. I dropped a completed hull off a work bench onto concrete, it bounced, no damage other than some "road rash" on the surface.

The real issue with wood is labor. The conventional methods are labor intensive. To get around the labor you are going to have to develope and build some really expensive equipment.

We have carbon boats today because aerospace payed the capital expenses and some sailors used the equipment and knowledge. The only people developing wood construction that I know are the super high end furniture builders and none of them are cat sailors.

Re: Surf City Catamarans and A-Class Cats [Re: carlbohannon] #102544
04/12/07 10:42 AM
04/12/07 10:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Quote

The only people developing wood construction that I know are the super high end furniture builders and none of them are cat sailors



They AND Phill Brander !

Afterall the Blade F16 is a timber design with modern hull lines.


Click on the next link to see students from a Finnish Marine School building a Blade F16 as a school project.

http://www.gust.ax/gallery/sydvast_maritime/

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 04/12/07 12:51 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Surf City Catamarans and A-Class Cats [Re: PTP] #102545
04/13/07 09:42 AM
04/13/07 09:42 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
old hand
Stewart  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Please look at the build specs.. NO carbon in the hulls

Re: Surf City Catamarans and A-Class Cats [Re: carlbohannon] #102546
04/13/07 09:47 AM
04/13/07 09:47 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
old hand
Stewart  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
these As dont have carbon in their hulls! Carbon used in the beams and mast!..
A carbon hull was a rarity from AHPC.. Wasnt needed to get down to weight or strength..

Re: Surf City Catamarans and A-Class Cats [Re: Stewart] #102547
04/13/07 10:00 AM
04/13/07 10:00 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA
SurfCityRacing Offline OP
old hand
SurfCityRacing  Offline OP
old hand

Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA
Yep. There were seveal other options for the US market that we discussed to cut costs for the next order. These boats can be built with straight glass, aluminum boom, 1X19 stainless trap wires and still come in at weight. I don't have the pricing up on my site for those options yet, but I'm working on it.

Re: Surf City Catamarans and A-Class Cats [Re: Wouter] #102548
04/13/07 10:30 AM
04/13/07 10:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 778
Houston
carlbohannon Offline
old hand
carlbohannon  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 778
Houston
Quote
They AND Phill Brander !


Phill has my complete admiration for working in wood. However, it was the manufacturing I was thinking about. Some of these high end woodworkers have developed equipment and techniques for construction and production that I have never heard of anywhere else. They are combining CAD and CNC routers with visual mapping systems that can recognize and cut around bad spots in the wood or locate interesting knots and burls in low stress areas

Imagine, that you want to build a strip planked catamaran hull using female vertical half molds. You could feed the CAD data to a system that would calculate the individual battens. Each batten would have a unique taper, edge angle, edge to locate it in the mold, and provisions to locate the bulkheads and dagger board trunk. That data goes to a CNC router that cuts and numbers each batten.

Now take the battens to the mold. Lay in mold film, apply the outer layer of epoxy, then light glass for the skin, next a layer of epoxy with filler to accommodate imperfections in the wood, and finally the battens with epoxy applied to the edges. Then lay in the peel ply/mat and vacuum bag it.

Once you start working at this level there are lots of things you can do. For example:

You can cut the battens out of a laminate that spells the name of the boat out on the outer skin using different colored woods or laminate composites in for strength in critical areas.

You could close out the hull half's with an ultra light weight vertical bulkhead that the runs the full length of the hull. It turns the hull half's into a "D". Then you join the hull half's by gluing the flat section of the "D"s together.

Precession cut veneer and laminate it over a mold. You can add composite or different woods inside for strength. This would allow you to build a monocque hull with no internal bulkheads, like my A.

Vacuum bake the wood to remove the water and use high pressure (5000-10000 psi) to force moderate temp cure (150-200F) epoxy into the wood. This completely seals the wood and improves the strength.


A lot of things have developed since tortured ply, if you want to build a production boat out of wood

Re: Surf City Catamarans and A-Class Cats [Re: carlbohannon] #102549
04/13/07 11:34 AM
04/13/07 11:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Carl,

You haven't given this much thought have you? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Jake Kohl
Re: Surf City Catamarans and A-Class Cats [Re: Jake] #102550
04/13/07 04:50 PM
04/13/07 04:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
veteran
bvining  Offline
veteran

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
Carl you and I need to hang out. I was going to put some high end furniture grade wood laminate in the mold on my A cat but decided against it because I was worried about the thermal issues from having it sit in the sun. I'd love to have a "wood" boat that is only wood as the first 3/32 of the laminate, with a foam core and composite inner skin.

Or cotton fabric outer skin, which actually adds some structure, unlike paint.

Re: Surf City Catamarans and A-Class Cats [Re: waterbug_wpb] #102551
04/13/07 04:59 PM
04/13/07 04:59 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
veteran
bvining  Offline
veteran

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
Quote
how is that nomex honeycomb core for dent resistance?


Less than foam core, and end grain balsa and prone to significant delamination and water absorbsion if the laminate isnt done perfectly. It is however the lightest core available per square foot. I've heard reports of nomex weeping water, and denting really, really easily with very minor bumps, but thats more a factor of the skin, and bond to skin.

So unless you've got serious skills, or complete and total confidence in your builder, dont use nomex. And its hard to get your hands on, the aircraft industry likes it, most of what you can get is the end of a run from some aircraft order.

I recommend foam core, corecell is good stuff - cheap, easly to get, easy to work with, wont absorb water, good dent resistance, bonds are easier, bends with heat, cuts easily. Only slightly heavier per square ft than nomex.

Bill

Re: Surf City Catamarans and A-Class Cats [Re: bvining] #102552
04/13/07 05:03 PM
04/13/07 05:03 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
I dont know wether it is cellulose honeycomb or nomex in our Marstrøm Tornado, but I suspect it's nomex. It's very dentable in my opinion.

Re: Surf City Catamarans and A-Class Cats [Re: SurfCityRacing] #102553
08/04/07 11:00 PM
08/04/07 11:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2
H
hobiedon Offline
stranger
hobiedon  Offline
stranger
H

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2
Jeremy how do the A cats and the fx-one compare. Im about 215lbs so I wonder about the race seen also. Am I doomed to Finn sailing or is there singlehanded cat 4 me to race.
Don

Re: Surf City Catamarans and A-Class Cats [Re: hobiedon] #102554
08/05/07 03:14 AM
08/05/07 03:14 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Quote

Im about 215lbs so I wonder about the race seen also. Am I doomed to Finn sailing or is there singlehanded cat 4 me to race.



I would say that there is ample choice of performant singlehanded cats that will suit your weight well. Anything with a spinnaker will effectively cut down any disadvantage you'll have by being 215 lbs. In my opinion being a lightweight or heavyweight skipper doesn't impact performance as much on a catamaran as it does on a monohull dinghy.


[Linked Image]


With respect to race scene, things may be more dependent on where you are. The only singlehanded catamaran to have a world wide racing scene with respectable fleets everywhere is the A-cat at this time. The catamaran scene is transforming currently, the old singlehanded classes that were popular worldwide like the Hobie 17 are dying out. Especially one-design classes are vanishing from the scene. Three new designs/classes are trying to become new international classes in addition to the A-cats. These are the Hobie FX-one, Nacra inter-17 and the Formula 16's. All three have spinnakers. The last named class is currently the one with an international presence all over the world albeit in modest numbers. Now and then the F16's combine events with the A's. The F16's hold their first world cup in a week time. Nacra inter-17 had a comparably sized US nationals just last week I believe and the FX-one holds European championships with the same numbers of boats soon. A-cats holds large US, European, Australian and World Cup events. But then it has been around since the 60's. The A's don't have a spinnaker though and at 215 lbs you may want to loose some body weight to be really competitive.

So it all comes down to what you really want and where you are located.

Wouter

Attached Files
Last edited by Wouter; 08/05/07 03:18 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Surf City Catamarans and A-Class Cats [Re: hobiedon] #102555
08/05/07 08:05 AM
08/05/07 08:05 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
F

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
I'm 220 and it isn't a factor. My sailing is a factor.

www.vectorworkssail.com

I bought my Blade about 18 months ago and everything, all new: boat, sails, trailer, cat tracks, harness et al, came in it at $17k.

Re: Surf City Catamarans and A-Class Cats [Re: fin.] #102556
08/05/07 09:15 AM
08/05/07 09:15 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 62
K
KMarshack Offline
journeyman
KMarshack  Offline
journeyman
K

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 62
Lars Guck is around 200 poonds and is the current UN Natonal Champion. My son is 215 and placed 5th at the Nationals in Travis City. Do not use your weight as an excuse!!! Tune your sail/ mast right and just sail to your level. Come to Florida in November and watch 100 A's at the Worlds (number limmited by international rules or there would possibly be more). Where are you located? Some large fleets in some parts of the country.

Ken
USA 192

Re: Surf City Catamarans and A-Class Cats [Re: KMarshack] #102557
08/05/07 09:37 AM
08/05/07 09:37 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Is Lars Guck really around 200lbs?? There is hope even for me then.. But seriously, I have always tought a heavy crew would be disadvantaged against a lighter crew. A lighter crew will be fully powered up faster, create less hull-drag and sail with flatter sails which means less drag. A light crew will reach best VMG faster and be able to go into "pointing" mode earlier as the wind increases. Heavier crews will have some advantage in heavy winds, but until they have to let out on the traveller to depower I still think the lighter crews have the advantage.

Re: Surf City Catamarans and A-Class Cats [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #102558
08/05/07 10:21 AM
08/05/07 10:21 AM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline
addict
windswept  Offline
addict

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
Well,

I think that if Lars was going to compete for an Olympic berth he would probably get down to fighting weight, but if you look at his results in the A-Class in North America, he seems to be pretty unbeatable. It is his sailing skills and mastery of the boat that gets him there repeatedly, not his weight. I have watched him absolutely sail away from other competitors this year. At the Pre-Worlds/Mid-Winters this year, I believe that he won all but one race, which Pete Melvin won. During the last day of sailing, he had put quite a bit of distance between himself and the rest of the fleet by the first windward mark. It was an amazing display of control, finesse, racing skills and competitiveness. The winds were clocking 22-25 at the beginning of the first race and backed down to 18-20 for the final. Most of us watched from the beach that day, I for one not comfortable enough on an A to test my skills on a chartered boat in those conditions.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: Surf City Catamarans and A-Class Cats [Re: windswept] #102559
08/05/07 12:01 PM
08/05/07 12:01 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
dacarls Offline
old hand
dacarls  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
If Lars isn't big enough to sail an A-cat well, Clive Mayo is Much Bigger (240 these days?). Steve Clark too, for that matter! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Get a floaty one, and BE HAPPY.


Dacarls:
A-class USA 196, USA 21, H18, H16
"Nothing that's any good works by itself. You got to make the damn thing work"- Thomas Edison
Page 3 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 650 guests, and 104 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Darryl, zorro, CraigJ, PaulEddo2, AUS180
8150 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,404
Posts267,055
Members8,150
Most Online2,167
Dec 19th, 2022
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1