wow...such hatred and anger. Do you think this youth effort is hurting the sport or are you more angry because it doesn't support your particular brand loyalty?

That's a rhetorical question if I've ever seen one.

I don't hate Art, Jake. I'm not even angry. I'm just extremely suspicious of someone who writes a letter full of fuzzy bunnies and rainbows, then puts their hand out for money.

Call it the MBA/Accountant in me.

Art's got a lot more work to do before he convinces me that he's doing more than promoting the SL16 class in the United States - which in the long run, I can't see it helping the sport. Do we really need yet another class to further dilute our numbers?

View from an outsider, this why our sport will keep to dwindle down. Sadly anything new becomes a huge internet fight, names brands are tossed around and the Hobie edict is usually brought up.

What does it matter what boat people sail? As long as they are sailing and happy. But then again IDKS so carry on.

And what in the [sentence enhancer] is wrong with that!? His organization was GIVEN free boats from the manufacturer and you expect him to go and give press to their competitor all in the interest of fairness?

Like I said, how is the North American Youth Multihull Association committing fraud when they are putting Kids on BOATS that have more than one hull in North America?

Is it fraud to not be pushing Hobie when, as far as I can tell, the big H hasn't ponied up anything to his organization?



Oh Lord, the omnipresent H16 defenese argument?

Can you possibly, even fathom that some people DON'T like the H16?

Matt, like it or not (I'd guess "not"), the class and the mission are inexorably linked, at least for the next three years or so. I think the pissing match between members of ISAF who are Hobie sailors and the reps of Sirena (who apparently make a boat that is even less desirable to sail than the box a Nacra comes in) is flat-out silly. The Hobie class emphatically does not want a spinnaker on the 16. ISAF emphatically wants a spinnaker-rigged youth boat. Duh.

I think that, if you want additional information regarding the specifics: I'll bet you questions would get a quick answer if you popped off a note to Art or Rich Brew. I've seen the details - there's nothing nefarious going on. But don't take my word for it Mr. Stone. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The Hobie youth grants, according to Bob M., don't always get spent. Along with a Hobie youth, I made a couple of suggestions about how some grant money could go toward putting this kid on a Tiger for F18s. That was not well received, which is none of my business since I let my HCA membership lapse. The HCA youth program, while laudable, is not the same thing as what Art is trying to get set up - they are looking at a direct feeder into ISAF and Olympic events in response to the recent Olympic Event Selection bru-ha-ha.

Your post's tone is pretty harsh - if someone had made that post on the Hobie Forum, demanding financial details, etc., from HCA, I suspect you'd be in line to vociferously defend HCA. Just look at it in that light for a moment. Its not like Art hasn't worked with HCA and Hobie Cat USA plenty of times before. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Who's he owe his allegiance to? The donor?

Shouldn't he be fair to the kids? To make them aware of all the multihull opportunities available to them?



When he does it to the exclusion of all other programs (other than his own).



Why would they, when he is promoting a single product? Hobie Cat has given (and continues to give) a significant amount of $ to the HCA, some of which is directed to the youth programs. They've contibuted a lot in the past - how about the provided boats at the 2004 Alter Cup and the US Multihull Championship in Seacliff, NY?



Your words, not mine. I never mentioned the H-16. In fact, I don't want the H-16 w/spin to ever catch hold in this part of the world.

I will repeat the thrust of my arguement for those who continue to try to make this a SL16 vs. Hobie pissing match:

The NAYMA is not living up to their name by promoting a single catamaran class and a single program to the exclusion of all others. By all appearances, it is a personal crusade to promote the SL16 in the United States.

Let's get this straight - I DON'T CARE IF THE SL16 IS PROMOTED IN THE US - but don't con me into giving you a donation by naming your organization to imply it supports Youth Multihull Sailing in all of North America.

If thats the way you see it, then you're looking at this whole thing through a very Hobie-tinted myopic view. Its living up to its name just fine, its just that its not pushing the Hobie Class Agenda.

If you give money to any organization based on just the "name" and don't do your research into the organization first, then, I have a bridge....blah blah blah.



Again, I still don't see how Youth Multhull Association has to implicitly support every class that pops up for youths.

Ok I don’t get it why you all do not support the H16 as the youth boat and as a class in general. The H16 is available everywhere used, they are available new on 4-5 continents (US, Europe, Australia, Brazil, and I think in S. Africa), raced very actively world wide (World Championships and National events which have been well attended for over 30 years, plus the boat is in the PanAm Games), and so on. So am I missing something here? Why is it that you all are not backing the H16. I believe any rational sailing community that had such a successful racing and recreational class would be ecstatic but all you people can do is try and kill it (not going to happen by the way). It’s like you are shooting yourself in the foot but just can’t feel the pain because of your blind hatred for your foot. I don’t get it but I am sure you can bash away why you don’t support the H16 class, honestly I don’t really care anymore. And this crap that kids don’t like the H16 is bull and the ISAF selection was not about what the kids wanted but what the manufacture and the ISAF officials worked out.

You are kidding, right? First, use your real username rather than a newly-created alt. Second, this has nothing to do with a bias for or against the Hobie 16. Efforts (on either side) to make it so are counterproductive.

Facts: ISAF wants a spin-rigged youth boat. Hobie 16 class does not want to become a spin-rigged boat. Hobie youth sailing is in NO DANGER of becoming extinct or threatened - HCA will keep doing what they are doing, and fair winds.

pot-stirrer... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

This argument is going to spin in about 6 different directions...

The spinnaker is quickly gaining momentum with the dingy youth crowd (29'er, 420, etc) and some feel that we need a youth catamaran that, when placed beside a 29'er, looks relative and modern and fast. This also has implications into what was happening with the US Sailing bid claiming that we don't have any up and comers who show potential toward a multihull Olympic class....without a youth boat with spinnaker, our highly talented youth sailors are going to continued to be viewed as not-so-modern and not given much credit for their accomplishments toward Olympic aspirations if they aren't sailing a boat that shares some similarity. It's not an insult to the H16.

Art has busted his tail and dedicated countless hours, days, weeks, and months putting together the US Sailing youth program that we have today and he has a lot of clear and strong positives to his credit. I know Art enough to know that his motivations are true and honestly focused on building a strong youth program.

Matt, in hindsight your post should have been handled privately, and for you to call Tad's post juvenile is quite the "pot calling the kettle black". This is a new day, and any effort by any manufacturer to bring kids into this sport should be applauded, not slapped down because its not your "brand". Hobie also gets applause for ALL they have done over the many years of this sport, but I give you a big Boo for bringing this brand name mudslinging into the public eye. I think you may even owe Art an apology for ruining his post.

No argument there - I whole-heartedly agree.

Art also wrote (in response to Dermot, way back up the thread):

(again, emphasis added)

Then why does his site only promote the SL16?

I'm not slapping Art down - I'm insisting that he live up to his own words.

I don't care whether he has Hobie, F-16, Mystere 4.3 or that weird inflatable "Skippy" thing on his website, but to exclusively promote one brand of catamaran for youths smells an awful lot like a sales pitch in the guise of a non-profit program.

**I** was not the one that brought up the brand name mudslinging into this thread. You can thank Mr. Pecorak for initiating that.

After donating five boats you'd think there must be some kind of payoff for the company in the form of advertising and endorsments. I have no idea what an SL16 goes for so let's round it off to $50K for five boats. For that kinda money it's very reasonable to expect Art to push SL16s.

If the program is successful for the kids improving their skill levels and the manufacturer selling more boats, will Hobie and others be interested in donating next year? Sirena has done the marketing research for them. If Art's program works he may be in a position to take boats and other equipment as donations in exchange for endorsements. His program could become self substaining.

If Hobie US were to supply two new Tigers for Team Seacats racing, you bet your [sentence enhancer] that the Hobie logo would be promoted in every nook and cranny of www.teamseacats.com - I just don't see a problem with this youth initiative doing the same thing.

*cough*



*gasp* !!!



I think my goat could even read between these lines... Mr. Bounds.


Basically your whole post that STARTED this whole "mudslinging" is quoted up there for what it is. All if it before I even touched the fingerboard.

And you're trying to pin the whole "brand name mud slinging" thing on me? Please.

Also, you can stop using my real name. Now.

It is too bad all this energy is not directed to the real goal of getting more Youth sailing multihulls and building Youth Programs. When Gordon Isco, then Chair of the US SAILING Multihull Council set up the Fast and Fun program with assistance from Hobie Cat Co. the goal was to promote Catamaran Sailing, and to get people on the water. Go to the following site to see the pictures and read the success of this program http://www.ussailing.org/multihull/fast&fun.htm
Art Stevens took this program to the next level, as noted and even was driving the rig to the locations in 2003. Unfortunately this programed did not have enough support and was discontinued in 2004. Several Community Sailing Centers, including Sail Sand Point in Seattle have kept the Fast and Fun free sailing program going, and have benefited from this effort. Fast and Fun is promoted at all the US SAILING meetings in both the Multhull and Community Sailing Councils. That is also why this link continues to be on the Multihull Council website. As an example, on May 5, we will have our third annual Fast and Fun in Kirkland on Lake Washington. We have signed an agreement with the City of Kirkland to expand our Sail Sand Point program to also offer classes at Juanita Beach in Kirkland this year, partly due to this program. See www.sailsandpoint.org.

Art is also the Chair of the US SAILING Youth Multihull Committee that conducts the annual national championship, see http://www.ussailing.org/championships/youth/multihull/

As noted on the webpage, the manufactures of multihulls are requested to submit their proposals to be selected to provide the boats for this event. This is the same as the proceedure for the Hobie Alter Cup. If you look at the past selection of boats for both events, you will see it does include several different manufacturers.

Looking at the list of individual donors for NAYMA at www.nayma.org, you will see the same list of dedicated volunteers from the Multihull Council, Art Stevens, his son Wade, Gordon Isco, Darline Hobock, and Rich Brew. These people have all spent countless hours promoting Youth Progams and now additional resources to help get this new program going. As noted the program does give considerable credit and exposure to Performance Catamaran and the SL16. Also consider their investment in this program. We should wish them well on this program. As noted, several locations have already signed on to take advantage of this new ventue.

Like any program, it is up to us the individual Catamaran Sailors to select which program we will support. The important decision we need to make is to step up, volunteer, and take part for the sake of our future.

Caleb Tarleton

Sorry - didn't mean to out you and the goat. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The goat is sensitive ok? He's got stalkers and such. I've got to keep paying the security company for his bodyguard, armored car, background checks, etc... its all putting a huge dent in my sailing budget. Maybe Dave had the right idea in just dragging it behind the boat.

Just, remember the goats.

I wish I had a goat.