| Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and..
[Re: Chris9]
#112961 07/30/07 09:00 AM 07/30/07 09:00 AM |
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,246 Orlando, FL tback
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Posts: 1,246 Orlando, FL | 42 PROPULSION 42.1 Basic Rule Except when permitted in rule 42.3 or 45, a boat shall compete by using only the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of sails and hull, and perform other acts of seamanship, but shall not otherwise move their bodies to propel the boat. 42.2 42.2 Prohibited Actions Without limiting the application of rule 42.1, these actions are prohibited: (a) pumping: repeated fanning of any sail either by pulling in and releasing the sail or by vertical or athwartships body movement; (b) rocking: repeated rolling of the boat, induced by (1) body movement, (2) repeated adjustment of the sails or centreboard, or (3) steering; (c) ooching: sudden forward body movement, stopped abruptly; (d) sculling: repeated movement of the helm that is either forceful or that propels the boat forward or prevents her from moving astern; (e) repeated tacks or gybes unrelated to changes in the wind or to tactical considerations. 42.3 Exceptions (a) A boat may be rolled to facilitate steering. (b) A boat’s crew may move their bodies to exaggerate the rolling that facilitates steering the boat through a tack or a gybe, provided that, just after the tack or gybe is completed, the boat’s speed is not greater than it would have been in the absence of the tack or gybe. (c) Except on a beat to windward, when surfing (rapidly accelerating down the leeward side of a wave) or planing is possible, the boat’s crew may pull the sheet and the guy controlling any sail in order to initiate surfing or planing, but only once for each wave or gust of wind. (d) When a boat is above a close-hauled course and either stationary or moving slowly, she may scull to turn to a close- hauled course. (e) A boat may reduce speed by repeatedly moving her helm. (f) Any means of propulsion may be used to help a person or another vessel in danger. (g) To get clear after grounding or colliding with another boat or object, a boat may use force applied by the crew of either boat and any equipment other than a propulsion engine. Note: Interpretations of rule 42 are available at the ISAF website (www. sailing.org) or by mail upon request.
USA 777
| | | One more reason why I dislike ISAF ...
[Re: tback]
#112964 07/30/07 10:11 AM 07/30/07 10:11 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe | ... these actions are prohibited:
(2) repeated adjustment of the sails ...
I guess we are all disqualified all the time.
I don't know about you but on my cat I'm continiously adjusting my sails. Glenn Ashby adjusts just the downhaul about 20 times per upwind leg.
Most of the other rules are extremely hard to enforce. As such it is not fair to have these rules as the risk of getting caught is to small to be of any real concern. It will be far better to allow to these things and just call it part of sailboat racing.
Wouter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: One more reason why I dislike ISAF ...
[Re: Wouter]
#112965 07/30/07 10:32 AM 07/30/07 10:32 AM |
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,528 Looking for a Job, I got credi... scooby_simon Hull Flying, Snow Sliding.... |
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Posts: 3,528 Looking for a Job, I got credi... | ... these actions are prohibited:
(2) repeated adjustment of the sails ...
I guess we are all disqualified all the time.
I don't know about you but on my cat I'm continiously adjusting my sails. Glenn Ashby adjusts just the downhaul about 20 times per upwind leg.
Most of the other rules are extremely hard to enforce. As such it is not fair to have these rules as the risk of getting caught is to small to be of any real concern. It will be far better to allow to these things and just call it part of sailboat racing.
Wouter Wouter, you need to read the rule in full..... Her crew may adjust the trim of sails and hull, and perform other acts of seamanship Thus you can trim the sails to the wind, but not pump. If you were to allow pumping then some boats would just pump all the way around, totally changing the nature of the sport.
F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD I also talk sport here | | | Re: One more reason why I dislike ISAF ...
[Re: scooby_simon]
#112966 07/30/07 12:53 PM 07/30/07 12:53 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe | Thus you can trim the sails to the wind, but not pump.
Pumping is disallowed by a seperate article, i.e : (a) pumping: repeated fanning of any sail either by pulling in and releasing the sail or by vertical or athwartships body movement; So either "(2) repeated adjustment of the sails" is redundant or refering to something else. Either way the wording of the rule is far too vague (open to intepretation) to be enforced. If you were to allow pumping then some boats would just pump all the way around, totally changing the nature of the sport.
Who determined that pumping is "unnatural" to the sport of sailing ? I think a very good argument can be held to the contrary or do we really believe that ancient mariners just sat motionless on the gunwhale like an English lord holding a brandy and being a good sport ? Wouter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: One more reason why I dislike ISAF ...
[Re: Wouter]
#112967 07/30/07 01:38 PM 07/30/07 01:38 PM |
Joined: Feb 2004 Posts: 3,528 Looking for a Job, I got credi... scooby_simon Hull Flying, Snow Sliding.... |
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
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Posts: 3,528 Looking for a Job, I got credi... | Thus you can trim the sails to the wind, but not pump.
Pumping is disallowed by a seperate article, i.e : (a) pumping: repeated fanning of any sail either by pulling in and releasing the sail or by vertical or athwartships body movement; So either "(2) repeated adjustment of the sails" is redundant or refering to something else. Either way the wording of the rule is far too vague (open to intepretation) to be enforced. If you were to allow pumping then some boats would just pump all the way around, totally changing the nature of the sport.
Who determined that pumping is "unnatural" to the sport of sailing ? I think a very good argument can be held to the contrary or do we really believe that ancient mariners just sat motionless on the gunwhale like an English lord holding a brandy and being a good sport ? Wouter I think mine did <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> On my fathers side we ran sailing scooners all around the world,ran a fleet of about 20 at the height. On my mum's side I think most of the Lords paid their crew to do all the work.
F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD I also talk sport here | | | Re: One more reason why I dislike ISAF ...
[Re: scooby_simon]
#112968 07/30/07 02:10 PM 07/30/07 02:10 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter
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Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe |
My side came from working boats, mostly fishermen. When there was no wind it was a choice between allowing your cargo to spoil or "work" the boat to port manually and earn a buck.
Wouter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: One more reason why I dislike ISAF ...
[Re: scooby_simon]
#112969 07/30/07 03:36 PM 07/30/07 03:36 PM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 5,582 “an island in the Pacifi... hobie1616
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Posts: 5,582 “an island in the Pacifi... | On my fathers side we ran sailing scooners all around the world,ran a fleet of about 20 at the height. On my mum's side I think most of the Lords paid their crew to do all the work. My grandfather was a rum runner during Prohibition. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> US Sail Level 2 Instructor US Sail Level 3 Coach | | | Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and..
[Re: Chris9]
#112972 07/31/07 03:47 AM 07/31/07 03:47 AM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 2,844 42.904444 N; 88.008586 W Todd_Sails
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Posts: 2,844 42.904444 N; 88.008586 W | Reminds me of the time........ I surfed down the 'mother of all waves'. But this time, it was not the size, it was the length of the wave.
The wave is in the Guiness Book, for the longest wave. It was on Chris Greens' old HObie 18 magnum, in Galveston Bay, about 5-7 years ago.
Long story short, we were reaching to cross the HOuston Ship Channel, when a huge tanker was coming inbound. The wave is propagated by the bow wave, the displacement wave, and the shallow shoals, just outside the channel.
We caught the wave just as you would on your surfboard, turned down the face, and kept the boat on the face with the tiller, going from the bottom, to top, and diagonally inbetween. The wave was going downwind, and in light air, we were close hauled via the apparent wind of the wave pushing us.
We stayed on the face of the one wave for over three miles. This was the mother of all waves for me, certainly not the biggest wave I've negotiated on a catamaran, but certianly the most memorable.
I hope Chris chimes in on this one, Chris?
Last edited by Todd Bouton; 07/31/07 03:47 AM.
F-18 Infusion #626- SOLD it!
'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
| | | Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and..
[Re: pepin]
#112973 07/31/07 11:43 AM 07/31/07 11:43 AM |
Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 976 France pepin
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Posts: 976 France | Mmm, time to fire an email to my instructor... Thanks. Okay, I did fire an email to him and he replied. Here is his opinion (Note that he is instructor at national level, with a lot of experience). A very interesting point. However I’m not sure I agree that the rule precludes what I've suggested, “putting one foot in the water to increase drag and slow down".
Looking at the rule, clause by clause.
1 “a boat shall compete by using only the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed”
That’s OK, we’re using water
2 “Her crew may adjust the trim of sails and hull, and perform other acts of seamanship”
Not very seaman like but otherwise OK
3 “but shall not otherwise move their bodies to propel the boat”
We’re not propelling it.
So as I see it, if we use our hands to paddle forward, that’s illegal, but using hand (or leg) to slow down isn’t.
I guess that's one of those open to interpretation things... | | | Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and..
[Re: pepin]
#112974 07/31/07 02:45 PM 07/31/07 02:45 PM |
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,246 Orlando, FL tback
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Posts: 1,246 Orlando, FL | as he said ... let's break this down clause-by-clause. The very first paragraph says:
"...a boat shall compete by using only the wind and water to increase, maintain or ***decrease*** her speed."
Notice the word ***decrease***
USA 777
| | | Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and..
[Re: tback]
#112975 07/31/07 02:52 PM 07/31/07 02:52 PM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | I guess in one sense you're using the water to decrease your speed by dragging your foot, but I think I agree with TBack. Otherwise, I'd carry a drouge and toss it out if I'm early to a start line and need to slow down...
Jay
| | | Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and..
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#112976 07/31/07 02:56 PM 07/31/07 02:56 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | I guess in one sense you're using the water to decrease your speed by dragging your foot, but I think I agree with TBack. Otherwise, I'd carry a drouge and toss it out if I'm early to a start line and need to slow down... I'm going to install a drag brake under my trampoline. It could really come in useful! Seriously though, he makes a good point in that it does not appear to be expressly prohibited to put your feet in the water to slow your boat down. I would be interested to hear some sort of official interpretation on this (and my drag brake).
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and..
[Re: Jake]
#112977 07/31/07 02:58 PM 07/31/07 02:58 PM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | I have a name for my boat's drag brake... "MY FAT butt" <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Jay
| | | Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and..
[Re: Jake]
#112978 07/31/07 06:49 PM 07/31/07 06:49 PM |
Joined: Jul 2001 Posts: 1,200 Vancouver, BC Tornado
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Posts: 1,200 Vancouver, BC | Regardless of legality...I don't believe sticking your foot in the water while doing 15+ kts is going to slow you down an appreciable amount. You're also likely to be swept off the boat. I've tried this while approaching a beach and was preparing to hop off and stop the boat...water just pulled both feet out from under me before they touched bottom. Boat was only going 10 kts or so at the time...too fast for safe beaching but also lots slower than what Rolf describes. I guess in one sense you're using the water to decrease your speed by dragging your foot, but I think I agree with TBack. Otherwise, I'd carry a drouge and toss it out if I'm early to a start line and need to slow down... I'm going to install a drag brake under my trampoline. It could really come in useful! Seriously though, he makes a good point in that it does not appear to be expressly prohibited to put your feet in the water to slow your boat down. I would be interested to hear some sort of official interpretation on this (and my drag brake).
Mike Dobbs Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
| | | Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and..
[Re: Jake]
#112979 07/31/07 09:03 PM 07/31/07 09:03 PM |
Joined: Dec 2005 Posts: 443 Edmonton, Alberta, Canada bobcat
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Posts: 443 Edmonton, Alberta, Canada | Judges must remember to police all rule 42 infringements, even those not mentioned above, such as propelling a boat by fending off others and decreasing speed by dragging feet or the body in the water. This is a snip from the judges manual found on the sailing.org website. Rule 42 Manual | | | Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and..
[Re: bobcat]
#112980 08/01/07 04:09 AM 08/01/07 04:09 AM |
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 4,451 West coast of Norway Rolf_Nilsen OP
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Posts: 4,451 West coast of Norway | Putting your feet in to slow down would not make much difference at the speed we were travelling down the wave. Would be an excellent way to have neoprene boots etc. ripped off methinks. Could be useful if early on the starting line, but I think it's illegal under the rules.
So, what it boils down to is not to get into such a situation. Recognize the wave early, stall out to slow down or head up and hope the wave behind is smaller. To slow down, sheet the jib for going to windward so it chokes the mainsail when going downwind. Travel the mainsail out and sheet in (perhaps decrease mast rotation and apply downhaul as well). Dont go dead downwind, but keep the apparent at 90deg, better to head up than going downwind with the wrong wave. Opinions differ tough, so I guess there are several different strategies that could work. Going dead downwind with the mainsheet released while "on the wave" is verified to _not_ work, unless you are being filmed and want to give the camera something extra.
Too bad the camera crews was on the inshore course, they could have got some really spectacular photos with the beachcats offshore. We shared course with some largish monohulls and I have seldom seen so many large grins and thumbs up as that day. Btw: Håkan is too modest, he won the nordic Hobie 16 championship that weekend. | | |
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