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Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and.. [Re: Chris9] #112961
07/30/07 09:00 AM
07/30/07 09:00 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
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Quote
Rule 42


42 PROPULSION

42.1 Basic Rule
Except when permitted in rule 42.3 or 45, a boat shall compete by
using only the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her
speed. Her crew may adjust the trim of sails and hull, and perform
other acts of seamanship, but shall not otherwise move their bodies to
propel the boat.


42.2


42.2 Prohibited Actions
Without limiting the application of rule 42.1, these actions are
prohibited:

(a) pumping: repeated fanning of any sail either by pulling in and
releasing the sail or by vertical or athwartships body movement;
(b) rocking: repeated rolling of the boat, induced by
(1) body movement,
(2) repeated adjustment of the sails or centreboard, or
(3) steering;
(c) ooching: sudden forward body movement, stopped abruptly;
(d) sculling: repeated movement of the helm that is either forceful
or that propels the boat forward or prevents her from moving
astern;
(e) repeated tacks or gybes unrelated to changes in the wind or to
tactical considerations.

42.3 Exceptions
(a) A boat may be rolled to facilitate steering.
(b) A boat’s crew may move their bodies to exaggerate the rolling
that facilitates steering the boat through a tack or a gybe, provided that, just after the tack or gybe is completed, the boat’s
speed is not greater than it would have been in the absence of
the tack or gybe.
(c) Except on a beat to windward, when surfing (rapidly accelerating down the leeward side of a wave) or planing is possible, the
boat’s crew may pull the sheet and the guy controlling any sail
in order to initiate surfing or planing, but only once for each
wave or gust of wind.
(d) When a boat is above a close-hauled course and either
stationary or moving slowly, she may scull to turn to a close-
hauled course.
(e) A boat may reduce speed by repeatedly moving her helm.
(f) Any means of propulsion may be used to help a person or
another vessel in danger.
(g) To get clear after grounding or colliding with another boat or
object, a boat may use force applied by the crew of either boat
and any equipment other than a propulsion engine.
Note: Interpretations of rule 42 are available at the ISAF website (www.
sailing.org) or by mail upon request.


USA 777
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and.. [Re: Chris9] #112962
07/30/07 09:07 AM
07/30/07 09:07 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
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France
pepin Offline
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Quote
Rule 42
Mmm, time to fire an email to my instructor... Thanks.

Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and.. [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #112963
07/30/07 09:09 AM
07/30/07 09:09 AM
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Houston
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I have only done that once. It was on a 5.5 uni. The wind and waves just kept building. I kept going deeper and deeper on the downwind legs, just to survive. On one leg, I was going nearly dead downwind, topped a monster swell, felt the wind go calm (you are now going dead down wind at windspeed) and watched the water rocket toward me. It took 3 people to keep the boat upright long enough to get on board and head for the beach.

I really do not know what to do to regain control. I had reached the capabilities of me and the boat. Now, when I am in danger of pitchpoling. going dead downwind, I go to the beach.

One more reason why I dislike ISAF ... [Re: tback] #112964
07/30/07 10:11 AM
07/30/07 10:11 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
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Wouter Offline
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... these actions are
prohibited:

(2) repeated adjustment of the sails ...


I guess we are all disqualified all the time.

I don't know about you but on my cat I'm continiously adjusting my sails. Glenn Ashby adjusts just the downhaul about 20 times per upwind leg.

Most of the other rules are extremely hard to enforce. As such it is not fair to have these rules as the risk of getting caught is to small to be of any real concern. It will be far better to allow to these things and just call it part of sailboat racing.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: One more reason why I dislike ISAF ... [Re: Wouter] #112965
07/30/07 10:32 AM
07/30/07 10:32 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
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Quote
... these actions are
prohibited:

(2) repeated adjustment of the sails ...


I guess we are all disqualified all the time.

I don't know about you but on my cat I'm continiously adjusting my sails. Glenn Ashby adjusts just the downhaul about 20 times per upwind leg.

Most of the other rules are extremely hard to enforce. As such it is not fair to have these rules as the risk of getting caught is to small to be of any real concern. It will be far better to allow to these things and just call it part of sailboat racing.

Wouter


Wouter, you need to read the rule in full.....

Quote
Her crew may adjust the trim of sails and hull, and perform
other acts of seamanship


Thus you can trim the sails to the wind, but not pump.


If you were to allow pumping then some boats would just pump all the way around, totally changing the nature of the sport.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: One more reason why I dislike ISAF ... [Re: scooby_simon] #112966
07/30/07 12:53 PM
07/30/07 12:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

Thus you can trim the sails to the wind, but not pump.


Pumping is disallowed by a seperate article, i.e :

(a) pumping: repeated fanning of any sail either by pulling in and
releasing the sail or by vertical or athwartships body movement;

So either "(2) repeated adjustment of the sails" is redundant or refering to something else.

Either way the wording of the rule is far too vague (open to intepretation) to be enforced.


Quote

If you were to allow pumping then some boats would just pump all the way around, totally changing the nature of the sport.



Who determined that pumping is "unnatural" to the sport of sailing ?

I think a very good argument can be held to the contrary or do we really believe that ancient mariners just sat motionless on the gunwhale like an English lord holding a brandy and being a good sport ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: One more reason why I dislike ISAF ... [Re: Wouter] #112967
07/30/07 01:38 PM
07/30/07 01:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
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Quote

Quote

Thus you can trim the sails to the wind, but not pump.


Pumping is disallowed by a seperate article, i.e :

(a) pumping: repeated fanning of any sail either by pulling in and
releasing the sail or by vertical or athwartships body movement;

So either "(2) repeated adjustment of the sails" is redundant or refering to something else.

Either way the wording of the rule is far too vague (open to intepretation) to be enforced.


Quote

If you were to allow pumping then some boats would just pump all the way around, totally changing the nature of the sport.



Who determined that pumping is "unnatural" to the sport of sailing ?

I think a very good argument can be held to the contrary or do we really believe that ancient mariners just sat motionless on the gunwhale like an English lord holding a brandy and being a good sport ?

Wouter


I think mine did <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> On my fathers side we ran sailing scooners all around the world,ran a fleet of about 20 at the height. On my mum's side I think most of the Lords paid their crew to do all the work.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: One more reason why I dislike ISAF ... [Re: scooby_simon] #112968
07/30/07 02:10 PM
07/30/07 02:10 PM
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Wouter Offline
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My side came from working boats, mostly fishermen. When there was no wind it was a choice between allowing your cargo to spoil or "work" the boat to port manually and earn a buck.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: One more reason why I dislike ISAF ... [Re: scooby_simon] #112969
07/30/07 03:36 PM
07/30/07 03:36 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
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“an island in the Pacifi...
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On my fathers side we ran sailing scooners all around the world,ran a fleet of about 20 at the height. On my mum's side I think most of the Lords paid their crew to do all the work.

My grandfather was a rum runner during Prohibition. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


US Sail Level 2 Instructor
US Sail Level 3 Coach
Re: One more reason why I dislike ISAF ... [Re: hobie1616] #112970
07/30/07 05:57 PM
07/30/07 05:57 PM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 502
Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
D
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You can pump when you are not beating, once per wave, it is in 42.3 which also allows steering to reduce speed. I dont think the wording is vague and it is definitely enforced at the Laser ragattas I go to both by on water judges and other competitors.

Darryn

Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and.. [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #112971
07/30/07 09:45 PM
07/30/07 09:45 PM
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maui
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you need to head up some time before you get to the bottom of the wave. in surfing it's called a bottom turn.
the advantage of not running the spi in the big swells is that you can steer up and over the backs of waves rather than always having to bear off to keep from flying the hull too high and going over sideways.

Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and.. [Re: Chris9] #112972
07/31/07 03:47 AM
07/31/07 03:47 AM
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42.904444 N; 88.008586 W
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Reminds me of the time........
I surfed down the 'mother of all waves'. But this time, it was not the size, it was the length of the wave.

The wave is in the Guiness Book, for the longest wave. It was on Chris Greens' old HObie 18 magnum, in Galveston Bay, about 5-7 years ago.

Long story short, we were reaching to cross the HOuston Ship Channel, when a huge tanker was coming inbound. The wave is propagated by the bow wave, the displacement wave, and the shallow shoals, just outside the channel.

We caught the wave just as you would on your surfboard, turned down the face, and kept the boat on the face with the tiller, going from the bottom, to top, and diagonally inbetween. The wave was going downwind, and in light air, we were close hauled via the apparent wind of the wave pushing us.

We stayed on the face of the one wave for over three miles. This was the mother of all waves for me, certainly not the biggest wave I've negotiated on a catamaran, but certianly the most memorable.

I hope Chris chimes in on this one, Chris?

Last edited by Todd Bouton; 07/31/07 03:47 AM.

F-18 Infusion
#626- SOLD it!

'Long Live the Legend of Chris Kyle'
Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and.. [Re: pepin] #112973
07/31/07 11:43 AM
07/31/07 11:43 AM
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France
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Quote
Quote
Rule 42
Mmm, time to fire an email to my instructor... Thanks.


Okay, I did fire an email to him and he replied. Here is his opinion (Note that he is instructor at national level, with a lot of experience).

Quote

A very interesting point. However I’m not sure I agree that the rule precludes what I've suggested, “putting one foot in the water to increase drag and slow down".

Looking at the rule, clause by clause.

1 “a boat shall compete by using only the wind and water to increase, maintain or decrease her speed”

That’s OK, we’re using water

2 “Her crew may adjust the trim of sails and hull, and perform other acts of seamanship”

Not very seaman like but otherwise OK

3 “but shall not otherwise move their bodies to propel the boat”

We’re not propelling it.

So as I see it, if we use our hands to paddle forward, that’s illegal, but using hand (or leg) to slow down isn’t.


I guess that's one of those open to interpretation things...

Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and.. [Re: pepin] #112974
07/31/07 02:45 PM
07/31/07 02:45 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
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Orlando, FL
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as he said ... let's break this down clause-by-clause. The very first paragraph says:

"...a boat shall compete by using only the wind and water to increase, maintain or ***decrease*** her speed."


Notice the word ***decrease***


USA 777
Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and.. [Re: tback] #112975
07/31/07 02:52 PM
07/31/07 02:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
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Naples, FL
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I guess in one sense you're using the water to decrease your speed by dragging your foot, but I think I agree with TBack. Otherwise, I'd carry a drouge and toss it out if I'm early to a start line and need to slow down...


Jay

Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and.. [Re: waterbug_wpb] #112976
07/31/07 02:56 PM
07/31/07 02:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
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South Carolina
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Quote
I guess in one sense you're using the water to decrease your speed by dragging your foot, but I think I agree with TBack. Otherwise, I'd carry a drouge and toss it out if I'm early to a start line and need to slow down...


I'm going to install a drag brake under my trampoline. It could really come in useful!

Seriously though, he makes a good point in that it does not appear to be expressly prohibited to put your feet in the water to slow your boat down. I would be interested to hear some sort of official interpretation on this (and my drag brake).


Jake Kohl
Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and.. [Re: Jake] #112977
07/31/07 02:58 PM
07/31/07 02:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
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Naples, FL
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I have a name for my boat's drag brake... "MY FAT butt" <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />


Jay

Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and.. [Re: Jake] #112978
07/31/07 06:49 PM
07/31/07 06:49 PM
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Vancouver, BC
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Regardless of legality...I don't believe sticking your foot in the water while doing 15+ kts is going to slow you down an appreciable amount. You're also likely to be swept off the boat. I've tried this while approaching a beach and was preparing to hop off and stop the boat...water just pulled both feet out from under me before they touched bottom. Boat was only going 10 kts or so at the time...too fast for safe beaching but also lots slower than what Rolf describes.


Quote
Quote
I guess in one sense you're using the water to decrease your speed by dragging your foot, but I think I agree with TBack. Otherwise, I'd carry a drouge and toss it out if I'm early to a start line and need to slow down...


I'm going to install a drag brake under my trampoline. It could really come in useful!

Seriously though, he makes a good point in that it does not appear to be expressly prohibited to put your feet in the water to slow your boat down. I would be interested to hear some sort of official interpretation on this (and my drag brake).


Mike Dobbs
Tornado CAN 99 "Full Tilt"
Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and.. [Re: Jake] #112979
07/31/07 09:03 PM
07/31/07 09:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
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Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
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Quote
Judges must remember to police all rule 42 infringements, even those not mentioned
above, such as propelling a boat by fending off others and decreasing speed by
dragging feet or the body in the water.


This is a snip from the judges manual found on the sailing.org website.
Rule 42 Manual

Re: Surfing down the mother of all waves, and.. [Re: bobcat] #112980
08/01/07 04:09 AM
08/01/07 04:09 AM
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West coast of Norway
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Putting your feet in to slow down would not make much difference at the speed we were travelling down the wave. Would be an excellent way to have neoprene boots etc. ripped off methinks. Could be useful if early on the starting line, but I think it's illegal under the rules.

So, what it boils down to is not to get into such a situation. Recognize the wave early, stall out to slow down or head up and hope the wave behind is smaller.
To slow down, sheet the jib for going to windward so it chokes the mainsail when going downwind. Travel the mainsail out and sheet in (perhaps decrease mast rotation and apply downhaul as well). Dont go dead downwind, but keep the apparent at 90deg, better to head up than going downwind with the wrong wave. Opinions differ tough, so I guess there are several different strategies that could work. Going dead downwind with the mainsheet released while "on the wave" is verified to _not_ work, unless you are being filmed and want to give the camera something extra.


Too bad the camera crews was on the inshore course, they could have got some really spectacular photos with the beachcats offshore. We shared course with some largish monohulls and I have seldom seen so many large grins and thumbs up as that day. Btw: Håkan is too modest, he won the nordic Hobie 16 championship that weekend.

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