I really can't believe what I'm reading.

I have dreamt about winning the AC since I was a teenager. I'm looking at the trophy right now, and the trophy Gordon Isco handmade has some names on it who are legends of the sport.

To me, it's a big deal to represent your area or class in the AC. You are REPRESENTING the sailors in your area or class. To make it to the AC means you are the BEST sailor in your area or class. That's not enough "incentive" to race in the AC? You are not only sailing for a championship, but making a statement about who you are, where you come from, and the other sailors in your area or class. If you win a qualifier as a ladder to winning the AC, the championship resides in your area. I think that IS a big deal.

Look, if you don't think you are good enough to compete to win the AC that's fine. I knew I didn't have a real shot the first AC I qualified for, but when I looked around and saw the caliber of sailors there.....Olympic medal winners, world champions, multiple time national champions, world class naval architects and sailmakers, I was in awe. I just wanted to learn from these guys and have fun doing it. We caught a beat down, but that only made me hungrier.

I get the feeling that a lot of sailors don't do the qualifier either because they feel they aren't good enough to be competitive or win the AC, don't have the time or money to go do it, or they are against DPN racing. If you are in any of those three categories feel free not to participate and let the sailors with a shot race. If your heart isn't in it don't even try, but don't try to sway people away from going to the most prestigous US Sailing multihull event.

I recommend to all cat sailors to try to qualify though, you never know what might happen or what you might learn from going to the AC. I will tell you this, you will come away from the AC as a much better sailor than you were when you started the week.

Wow, did I just write that much?

Pete...

If no one cares.... kind of hard to get someone to step up and be the Area Rep. It requires time and energy that could be spent elsewhere.

If the Alter cup is no longer of interest to the sailors...

Kill it and move on.

Consider the situation where the Area Rep gets his yacht club to host the regatta, gets a RC together and mark boats, a judge for the protest committe... and three boats show up.

When you have more RC then sailors.... its a disaster.

Turn it around and look at from the competitors point of view, if some regions have a half assed qualifier, where the top sailors simply don't come to compete. Does the championship have any credibility.... would it be worth your time to compete against these folks.

Now... if you want the Alter cup to be a perk of joining US Sailing. then you can go back to the days of 10 area winners and borrowed boats. relax the standards and have at it.

IF, IF, IF . Lots of people care, lots of people participate.

It ain't broke, please stop trying to fix it!

If attendance is a problem in your area, make it clear that there will be no race without a minimum number.

I wonder how many sailors know this is an "open" event. It is one of the few chances I have to sail with top notch sailors.

Mark,

Is it your intent to damage the event and take away the one multihull championship event within US Sailing?

It was a complete honor to compete in the Alter Cup for myself and Chris Zander in 2005 in Long Beach, CA. Even though we were DFL, I consider it the highest achievement of my sailing history to be on the water with such incredible talent. We didn't win our qualifier - we were third and the first place team got a manufacturer's slot and the second place couldn't go. I enjoyed it so much, I came back to help run the event the next year.

Some interesting discussion points.

Be very careful before you attack Bob (or anyone else for that matter). Do you really know the facts? Regardless of what happened at the event, he puts in an extraodinary number of hours promoting and serving in a number of roles. Whether you know it or not, many others of us do the same, and have been for many, many years. Lots of people complain about the shrinking volunteer base, but do you really look at how you treat the volunteers? Free speech is your right of course, but the attacks on volunteers that I've read on this board and heard at meetings and regattas make me sick.

OK, on to the real discussion. For one thing, Area A/B has been "combined" yet we have two Area reps. It's probably a valid question to ask if there a point to that anymore?

I am very excited to have Chris as our new Area A rep. Dave was a great guy too, but we all know that new blood is always a good thing, maybe Chris can drum up some more excitement/interest in this event.

I don't agree that the state of cat sailing is healthy in our area. Our numbers are down across the board, at every event at every level. I'm not saying that we need to start killing events, I'm just not surprised that the Alter Cup numbers are down when you look at the big picture.

This needs some explaining: "If you win a qualifier as a ladder to winning the AC, the championship resides in your area." Does that mean the future events must be held in the Area of the prior winner? This is news to me.

Getting back to the main point (I think): The solution seems pretty simple (in concept anyway). Make the event "important," free of calendar issues, with top R/C and social events, at a club with wind and top-notch facilities. Most NAs and YC events require pre-registration, couldn't hurt for this too.

Mike

I liked that some people had boats available (for crew or charter) at qualifiers to teams that wanted a shot at the AC but didn't have the boat.

With attendence down at regattas, it would appear that there would be more boats available to use for qualifiers, no?

Perhaps your area could work on some sort of contact tree or other database to match sailors with boats?

Perhaps consider setting up your sailing season as more of a series than a bunch of random regattas, culminating with the qualifiers?

Is there something that needs fixing ?...

Well, so far but 31 sailors in the USA have competed. A small fraction of the racing sailors in the regions.

A B Roton Point Sailing Assn, 2=3 boats
C Miles River Yacht Club, 9 pre regeisgered
D-N* Nigel Pitt's place postponed 7???
D-S* Gulfport Yacht Club, Gulfport, FL TBD
E CRAM info deleted ????
F Texas Catamaran Champs, 5 boats
G Santa Cruz Yacht Club, TBD
J Cabrillo Beach Yacht Club, 7 Boats
K Windjammers Sailing Club, 15 boats
L&H Skamokawa Vista Park, 7 boats


No Jake.... I don't want to see the qualifier go away.. However, low participation at everyplace but Wisconson and a regatta where people simply did not want to compete is good evidence that something needs adjustment.

In my region... the feed back I get about the qualifier is along these lines:

"The definition of obstinate is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results, despite advice to the contrary. You've put together a beautiful event but people aren't going for the reasons that have been discussed with you. Blaming the West River fleets and the NJ A Cat fleet collectively is crybaby BS. "

What would be your take be with this kind of feedback?


So. just because we have always done it a certain way does not mean that we should not change or adjust to the world.

Heck... you could make a case that all 20 spots go to petition and class chapmions and reserve one petition per area..

(Who knows... maybe all of the politicing that would go along with that model would make it interesting.)


PS (I am not sure how my comments are attacking Bob, or any other volunteer).

Hi Mark,

Your question was short, and could be read that way. Very glad that's not what you meant.

How do entrants for the other USSA championships get decided? We're not the only event using ladder eliminations, I presume. What numbers are they seeing at eliminations in other classes?

The rules COULD be changed such that if an area elimination doesn't meet a minimum number of entrants, it doesn't count. The position could be converted to one more petition slot. You could give preferential treatment to a petition that came from a competitor who bothered to show up.

Of course, that does seem extreme and all the work that went into organizing it would be for naught (which I suppose may be the case anyway).

This is notwithstanding the points John made about the issues (perceived or actual) about petition slots up to now.

Mike

My situation is simple. I have a limited amount of time to go racing so I choose to focus on one goal. For me the focus is on my class championship. The Alter Cup would be a fun event to do on the side but I don't have an extra week of vacation to give up. I wish I did.

That's a good point. With the current Hobie class points rules, these events will always get a back seat for Hobie sailors.

To use waterbug's idea, we'd need to make a special case for these events (make them count for double points or something).

Mike

[Quote] It was a complete honor to compete in the Alter Cup for myself and Chris Zander in 2005 in Long Beach, CA. [Quote]

Absolutely - In a sailing career strangely deviod of crowning acheivments. It is my only rockstar experience. Apart from learning that my fat butt could be faster if I would put the fork down, I had a great time. Don't forget I'm in to help any way I can at the next one!

What JC means here is that, for example, when Matt Struble won the event three times in a row, his Area (E) had some pretty big bragging rights. Area D and Area J have been enjoying a pretty good rivalry for many years about where the trophy lives from Championship to Championship. No requirements about hosting the event are attached to the trophy. I'll be eternally greatful that JC let me hold it for a few months - presenting it to my home club was a feeling I'll never forget. I felt like I'd hunted down and killed a mastadon single-handedly and brought the tribe back enough meat for a year. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I think what we're seeing from Mark is the angst of someone who respects the event, but as the organizer of the Eliminations he's feeling a deep frustration in the perceived lack of interest from sailors in his Area. I know just how he feels because I've been there. Moreso as the National Chair for a time - I saw a vast difference between Area events and participation, and felt ineffectual in trying to address it on a national scale. I told Jake when he took the job that raising the level of the Eliminations was my greatest failure as Alter Cup Chair, and I could offer no suggestions on how to bring about greater consistency.

Don't get me wrong - I think the Championship itself is flourishing and that some Areas are doing very well at hosting a meaningful qualifying event. Like JC and many others, the "why" of an Eliminations is elementary to me: I want to race against the best, at any event. But I also recognize that the reasons people sail are as many as the stars. I may be unique in that I have been DFL and first at both the Qualifier and at the Championship, as well as having the honour of an administrative role - Jake is aligning himself well to be the second person to follow that winding path. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />



The Hobie Class Association has declared and demonstrated repeatedly that they are solidly in favour of the Championship which bears the venerable name of the Alters. I am certain, based on past experience, that the Qualifiers can be scheduled in cooperation with Hobie fleets to prevent conflicts. Alot of Hobie sailors want into the Championship, too! I suspect this is the ONLY x-class regatta that is endorsed by Paul Ulibari, because the Area events are the best ticket into the ultimate one-design event; ten identical boats rotated through the fleet with no rigging adjustments allowed.

Two things make me happy ATM:

1. This has been a hotter topic than I could have hoped.
2. John Casey doubled his Catsailor wordcount to date. He's never written that much at once to his girlfriend! Oh, wait. Strike that. To his Mother! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I love this event both Nationally and Regionally. Florida enjoys a very strong area with many competitors eager to qualify. Other Areas are totally different with possibly only 2 or 3 teams that are really interested in qualifing. This is the real problem.

In order to make a regatta work you need to have at an absolute minimum 10 boats.

Altercup Qualifiers are required to have a Certified Judge and PRO. In some areas there are no local people to fill this role. Getting them to travel is very expensive and with a small fleet cost prohibitive.

The Qualifier requires both Skipper and Crew to be members of US Sailing. For the weekend warrior this is to much of a burden for a single regatta. Many skippers don't have regular crew and crews aren't eager to join US Sailing. So entry fee becomes Skipper and Crew US sailing membership $100.00 plus regatta of $60-$80 and you have a $180 regatta which people lose interest in.

The largest single factor which would greatly help the Area Eliminations would be to remove the requirement of a US Sailing membership for the crew.

It didn't help that US Sailing removed the Catamaran from the Olympic status on the last submission. Luckily that decision has changed thanks to the many people that helped make that happen. Hopefully this didn't damage to many peoples view of US Sailing. However it didn't help the image any.

When scheduling a qualifier you have to work around the Hobie schedule, Nationals schedule, Judges Schedule, Yacht Club Schedule, PRO Schedule, .... It's really hard to put it together. I know I did it for quite a few years.

As the Area Rep. You often feel like you are between a rock and a hard place because of pressure put on you from many sides.

I'm done,
Mike Hill
Former Area K Rep.

I can only speak for my personal experience. I have participated in the alter cup as a petition entry and I have won a spot which I didn't use. The A/B scheduling has made it difficult to attend. For the last couple years it seems to always get scheduled late and on top of two other regattas. I am not a chute boat sailor so with the current boats they are using for the alter cup it isn't a high priority for me to qualify. When a non chute boat is chosen I'll be more interested. Isn't it about time for an A cat to be chosen?

Cheers
Bill Jeffers

Bill,

If the A-cats or an a-cat manufacturer wishes to put in a bid proposal (boats) I'm certain it will receive full consideration!

Jake

That's right - the only reason a single-hand boat has never been in the Championship is because one has never been offered up for charter. Remember - the boats in the Alter Cup are there because the manufacturers want them showcased and then sold.

Unlike you guys on the Mainland who can hook up the trailer to your EM-50 Urban Assault Vehicle and head off to a regatta, we’re limited to our local island for regattas. The only current option is using Young Brother’s barges at a cost of around $400 each way. The Superferry looked like it might be cheaper but they’re hung up in court fighting over an Environmental Impact Statement. Ultimately, they may decamp and take their boats to a more welcoming environment.

Haven’t seen either one. My wife says she saw a Getaway at Mala. The guy had launched his boat and was trying to step the mast on the water. He finally gave up.

If you know how to contact either one let me know. The two local YCs have committed to a multihull start in their regattas but they want a minimum of three boats. I thought I had two Corsairs lined up but they chickened out.

There are lots of really good points here. There seem to be plenty of reasons people don't attend, yet they are basically in favor of it overall. Sort of a Catch-22, but I think it could be overcome if the events were above and beyond in terms of quality and fun.

As for the cost argument, I get exasperated by this. The days of anyone sailing a $500 boat at regattas are long gone, we're all sailing $8000-$16000+ boats and complaining about regatta fees and memberships to the organizations that make it all possible. Go to any monohull event at any YC, and you're looking at $60- $100 entry for a one-person OPTI entry fee. And yes, you have to be a member of the class, and usually, a local organization.

If we don't support the organizations, eventually, they won't be able to afford to exist. Granted, that may be a stretch for USSA, but we shouldn't be abusing the priveledge of asking for multihull events, then snubbing membership requirements.

If this were a learn-to-sail or a training regatta, I can see dropping the costs. But we're talking about a top-level event (or ladder series), so the argument holds absolutely no water IMO.

Of course, "forcing" people to join is not the correct attitude. Yes, membership (for all crew members) should be enforced as a requirement, and I would say, at every regatta level, down to points regattas. However, other that promoting it, no negative discussion should be allowed, particularly by the event hosts. We need to promote membership, especially by occasional crews. Hopefully, when they see the benefits, emails, newsletters, etc. they'll get even more excited about sailing and come around more often. As an added bonus, we'll have more multihull sailors on the roster for USSA.

Like John, I'm confident we can all work together to improve this, just might take a while.

Mike

I understand the logistics. What I was thinking was since they are the only active Catamaran fleet in HI, you could get together with them and set up some racing. They have about 50 boats at their facility and about 20 sailors . They just reinstated their fleet after being defunct for a number of years.

I'll see if I can get you the some contact for the guys on Maui. There are more than just the guys I've mentioned.

There's definitely enough boats for a 20 class on Oahu and I'm sure you could hitch a ride.
They are interested in legitimizing their fleet by doing some racing and the Alter Cup Qualifier was brought up several times. If not this year maybe next. It's just going to take a little push from guys like you to get it going.

And it looks like you have the interest.