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A-class with wing sail!? #117940
09/24/07 02:05 PM
09/24/07 02:05 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
Hakan Frojdh Offline OP
enthusiast
Hakan Frojdh  Offline OP
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
The wing sails has reached the A-class, good or bad?
The wing weights around 25 kg and cost lots of dollars!
It will be interesting to se how it performs at the A-class worlds.

[Linked Image]
/hakan

Attached Files
119274-wing.jpg (191 downloads)
Last edited by Hakan Frojdh; 09/24/07 02:13 PM.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Hakan Frojdh] #117941
09/24/07 02:13 PM
09/24/07 02:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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I didn't think a rigid wing was legal for the modern A class. Is it?


Jake Kohl
Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Hakan Frojdh] #117942
09/24/07 02:13 PM
09/24/07 02:13 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 902
Norman,OK
gree2056 Offline
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gree2056  Offline
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Norman,OK
It seems to me that it would be bad for the class if it is faster, it would run far to expensive for your average guy.

But it would put alot of nice A-class on the market and then I could own one.


IT is very cool!

Last edited by gree2056; 09/24/07 02:35 PM.

Once you go cat you never go back! Nacra 5.2 (Elsies)#1499, running an inter17 spin!
Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Jake] #117943
09/24/07 02:18 PM
09/24/07 02:18 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
Hakan Frojdh Offline OP
enthusiast
Hakan Frojdh  Offline OP
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Posts: 256
North Europe, Sweden, Uppsala
It is legal to sail with a rigid wing right now but it might be banned keep the class alive and healthy. The cost of such a wing is probably around 50 000 dollars....

/hakan

Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Hakan Frojdh] #117944
09/24/07 02:22 PM
09/24/07 02:22 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 851
US Western Continental Shelf
hobiegary Offline
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I wonder if one person can rig and unrig the boat without assistance.

GARY


Santa Monica Bay
Mystere 6.0 "Whisk" <--- R.I.P.
Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: hobiegary] #117945
09/24/07 02:50 PM
09/24/07 02:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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I would much rather see them pursue foils than wing masts. Much more speed bang for the buck, not to mention the ability to put them on the trailer vs. that huge wing.

I wonder why (any sailmakers please chime in here) someone has not developed some type of an inflateable wing sail, sort of like the parasail, only on it's side, that could be run up a conventional mast, with inflatable battens, more camber and more of a true wing shape, collapsable for storage too, made of mylar or a coated nylon.


Blade F16
#777
Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Timbo] #117946
09/24/07 03:01 PM
09/24/07 03:01 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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It's a "fad"


Jay

Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Timbo] #117947
09/24/07 03:16 PM
09/24/07 03:16 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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West coast of Norway
Hei Håkan,

nice looking wing! Wonder if the wing will have a slot and wether it can twist like Cogito and the other C-classers?
It will be interesting to the extreme seeing how this package do at the worlds. The only true test of wing efficency vs wingmast with soft sail we have had in the later years was in the 18square class. If I remember correctly, that boat (Wild Turkey) was 'out tacked' the one time it was beaten on the course?

I am pretty certain wings will be banned to keep cost down if it proves fast. Perheps even if it is dog slow <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Going for wings would probably mean a new era in homebuilding for the A-cat class. Would probably cut the class by 95% as well by my guess.



Timbo, make a wingmast with a large enough chord and you dont need an inflatable sail as the gains become quite small then. There have been several attempts of 'camber inducers' and 'RAF' systems like some sailboard rigs have, but they have not caught on. The L/D ratios we get out of our catamaran rigs are quite good, for the speeds we are sailing with. It sure makes handling and tuning a lot easier and cheaper.

Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Timbo] #117948
09/24/07 03:17 PM
09/24/07 03:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

I wonder why (any sailmakers please chime in here) someone has not developed some type of an inflateable wing sail,


Because such a sail has an inferiour "lift to drag" ratio; it will get beaten by a conventional soft rig of the same surface area. Additionally, depowering such an inflated sail is far more difficult. The inflated shape is the shape it will have under all conditions.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 09/24/07 03:19 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: hobiegary] #117949
09/24/07 03:22 PM
09/24/07 03:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Or right it after a capsize !

25 kg for the rig makes it at least 10 kg more heavy then a "conventional" A-cat rig

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Wouter] #117950
09/24/07 03:26 PM
09/24/07 03:26 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
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With a wing, I think they could save some weight in the hulls and the beams as they would not have to deal with the loads usually needed to keep the leech in. Have they had time to develop the platform for the wing? Dont think so, but would be delighted to hear otherwise.

Who pays for the project? And who is going to sail with the wing?

Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #117951
09/24/07 04:34 PM
09/24/07 04:34 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
Seeker Offline
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Seeker  Offline
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Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
“It is legal to sail with a rigid wing right now but it might be banned keep the class alive and healthy. The cost of such a wing is probably around 50 000 dollars....”

Good, bad or indifferent...A class or any other class…why does someone always come out with some outlandish cost estimate every time something different is suggested? Doesn’t matter if it’s a wing sail, new hull material, new construction technique…what ever…if its anything besides the status quo the nay sayers come out chanting “it’s going to cost a fortune and kill the class”.

Regards,
Bob

Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Hakan Frojdh] #117952
09/24/07 04:37 PM
09/24/07 04:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,203
uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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uk
That's a thing of beauty.

Who's gonna be sailing it?


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Seeker] #117953
09/24/07 04:38 PM
09/24/07 04:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 49
P
PpS Offline
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You're right Seeker. A wing will not kill the A class. look what it's done for the C class. They get four boats on the water just about every year. YEHAaaaa that's 8 class members worldwide.

Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: PpS] #117954
09/24/07 04:52 PM
09/24/07 04:52 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 695
Ft. Pierce, Fl. USA
Seeker Offline
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Seeker  Offline
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“You're right Seeker. A wing will not kill the A class. look what it's done for the C class. They get four boats on the water just about every year. YEHAaaaa that's 8 class members worldwide.”

PpS you missed my point completely…I was addressing a reoccurring attitude that exaggerates the expense of anything different. I am not saying the wing sail is good or bad for the A-class, what I am suggesting is that it (and any other possible improvements) be evaluated on its own merit, and live or die on that bases, rather than crush everything right out of the box based upon an exaggerated cost estimate.

Regards,
Bob

Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Wouter] #117955
09/24/07 06:17 PM
09/24/07 06:17 PM
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 613
New Hampshire, USA
windswept Offline
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New Hampshire, USA
Hakan,

I am asuming that this is Ben Hall's new boat, Peter cogan design with it rigid wing. Please correct me if I am wrong. Should be at Lake Hopatcong this weekend. I have also been asking the cost question as well. It would be difficult for me to believe that this will become the standard of the class or that Ben wants it to be with all the time he has invested in supporting and promoting the class. But then again if it wins the worlds, who knows.


Tom Siders
A-Cat USA-79
Tornado US775
Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Seeker] #117956
09/24/07 06:19 PM
09/24/07 06:19 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 951
Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
ncik Offline
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Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
If the solid wing is durable, you may never need to buy a sail again! Or a mast...

Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Hakan Frojdh] #117957
09/24/07 07:32 PM
09/24/07 07:32 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Northfield Mn
All you need is another wing, a tail and an engine and you could fly it home. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Karl_Brogger] #117958
09/24/07 08:12 PM
09/24/07 08:12 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 182
Coopersburg, PA
V
Vinny_M Offline
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Posts: 182
Coopersburg, PA
Did i read that correctly... $50,000!! wow, thats a bit out of the average guy's price range indeed


~vinny~
Re: A-class with wing sail!? [Re: Vinny_M] #117959
09/24/07 09:51 PM
09/24/07 09:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 190
lesburn1 Offline
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lesburn1  Offline
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Posts: 190
As I recall Crag's wing boat in the 18sq class did not destroy that class. I intend to go to Lake Hopatcong this
weekend as a tourist. I'll take lots of photos.

I just posted some photos from the 1982.
http://picasaweb.google.com/lesburn1/CCatsCirca1982


lesburn1.blogspot.com

A-Cat USA 49
18Sq 49

member- Royal Society for Making Cool Stuff
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