A bit harsh but true.

None of this has any real relavance to the Class organization, and presents a real deterent to the continued growth of the class.

Being at least partialy involded in all of these options and being someone who is interested in their potential, someday I would like to find the time to dabble myself. But, I would not want any of these things incorporated into the F16 though as it does not make sense.

To really make foils an advantage, the beam is way to small on our boats. To gain any real advantage with a wing both the beam and water length are too small. To have a 2 man boat that has good pitch numbers the length needs to closer to 18 feet. All of these items point to an already existing class - 18SQ If you guys really want to dable, you need to dirrect your verbal efforts on reviving this class.

Matt

Perhaps the wing thought is not applicable to F16, but that does not mean that F16 sailors should not throw the idea around..Wings on an H17...then clip ons for 18 and 16 qnd some people making them for H14s.....Gettaway.....
The boat with the best resale value in this country is definately the H17....??
Hobie clearly see the commercial value in the wings....
so is that value real in sporting endeavours?

Contempt before investigation is the play of the frightened and ignorant.

Personally I do not see the value in wings unless solo and wanting to compette against two up boats.
In F16 this might not make sense as I imagine the one up boats are already competitive.

And there in lies the rub.

Competitive...for that is where the excitement is.
Simply having a faster boat is only fun for those with big egos and low self-esteem.

I drove a lot of miles in a Miata MX5....which a lot of people say is a girls car.
I live on a long and very windy and hilly road. This car was a huge thrill and easily holds the record in against even the latest BMW sports convertible V8 400 horse $200K speedster much to the chagrin of it's pathetic owner.
Oncethe Miata hits the highway it is an underpowered, bumpy little girls car....but in its place it is a giant killer.

So, if people want wings..maybe a manufacturer like Hobie need to create the class or sailors who like wings need to create their own class....people are so disappointed with the loss of the 17. Maybe an F16 sailor who wants wings need to flag the F16 and get an H17....

F16 has an avid following of people who are happy with the platform and want to sail their best against other like minded individuals and attract more.....
You might end up with rudder foils but no wings.....where you do end up is dependant on the enrolement of the most people in the idea.

The minute talk is not allowed though....it is a faciest regeim and that is likey to drive people away, not encourage them.

Warbird:
Did you read the entire thread? The discussion is not about the wings the H17 uses, but instead a hard wing-sail.

Surely Warbird just made a mistake, I kept reading hoping he would reveal that he was joking.

Sorry, got up early to watch the rugby, ........I'll have a granny-nap and try to think a little more clearly in the future.

Warbird,
You have illustrated the point that Hans was making.

People don't always get the full understanding.

In this case you misunderstood the meaning of wings.
Others could have a more subtle missunderstanding regarding how such a discussion could influence the F16 rules regarding wing sails.

There are many who watch the forum that do not post and therefore there would be no opportunity to correct their missunderstanding.
I have misunderstood things like this myself.

IN the context of this thread my view is that any boat 16 ft long with a solid wing is not an F16 no matter what the other specs are.
The F16 rules do not allow it.

The potential for confusion/misunderstanding begins as soon as the words F16 and Wings appear in the subject together.

These things are interesting but need to be discussed in a manner such that there can be no misunderstanding.

While we could talk about placing a wing sail on a 16ft platform, I think the concept of a modern wing sail within the rule set of the Cat 1 18sq is a much more interesting and viable concept.

BTW:-
If we were talking about the H17 type of wings.
This was allowed for when the rules were drawn up provided the craft meets the beam regulations.

I hope the fellow that is sailing that "A" has a few spares....if he cartwheel's the thing....I imagine it would be a mess.

Also expensive mess.!!

Wing sail? $$$$$$$$ <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Very preliminary but here is one comment that answers your question (as taking from the latest A-cat race) :

>>The wing didnt win, although Ben is very fast. ... . He didnt capsize and on Sat when it was
>>windy and puffy I was pacing him upwind on the first beat. Once we went around the top mark he
>>was gone, way deeper and faster. He said later that upwind he was pinching and needed to put the
>>bow down and go.

Source : http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...umber=119992&page=0&vc=1


If this is indeed true (which need far more testing to determine) then this may actually mean that it is not attractive for F16's. Afterall we have the spinnaker for downwind work and we already go very deep and fast there. A fuller wingsail with slots won't do much then as the spinnaker is rotating the apparent wind over the mainsail to almost an upwind setting anyway. Also the spinnaker will be providing 80% of the power, thius implying any mainsail gains are devided by a factor of 5 and could well be negligiable in the overall picture.





Personally I believe this to be actually be a DISADVANTAGE of the wing sail. A sailor sheets the mainsail out to reduce power and lifting. Letting out the traveller instead will also work but many have found that this looses too much drive (and speed) at the same time as well. Try it yourself on your boat. I mean controlling the heel with the mainsheet and then with ony the traveller. When using the traveller you'll be losing pointing ability and speed every time you travel out. I don't see how this can be different with a wingsail.

Basically as will all new concepts. You get advantages ONLY at the expense of a set of disadvantages. If the first set is more important in achieving your end goals (win a bouy race) then the development is succesful. Otherwise it will fail. Also what may be succesful on a spinnakerless A-cat may well not be succesful on a cat with a spinnaker sail.

All very interesting.

Wouter

quote from the builder/owner Ben Hall..
"The cost of the materials in the wing were right around $2000 (1400 Euro at today's rate). A total of around 300 hours (about the same as one of the A Cats I built from scratch) went into building the wing. If I had to build it again the time would be about 100 hrs less."

Basically 10.000 USD for a wingsail.

A soft sail rig costs about 5000 USD.

Wouter

Wouter where did you get those figures from?

Ben Hall stated the figures his wing cost..

He engineered them...... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Labour hours are not for free, pick an hourly rate and the do the math ourself.

Wouter

Its a fudge then..

Build it in China! $1/h should cover it.

You meant a dollar per day, not per hour. At least they let their kids work 15 hour days though, so you will get your money's worth...

Would you order a refined and delicate piece of equipment like a wingsail with a 1 USD/ hour labour force ?

Wouter

Sure, why not.

(Its probably where 90% of all my other delicate equipment comes from!)

Let me see..

Look up.. see a light globe/fitting? Where do you think 85% of these are made?

you have a LCD screen in your laptop? a LCD TV? Like to guess where these were made? What about those who purchase/swear by IBM computers?..

Ok not all factories in China make quality products.. But there are a growing number who do.. Add to this eastern Europe (where the second level gliders are manufactured)... and India..
Given time and transfer of technology I would suspect they could make one.. Then that is only my opinion..