Thanks for that suggestion. I'm still just getting the feel of my boat after a season of mostly light winds up here. Capsized for the first time on Saturday trying to bear away in a gust downwind. Unfortunately our season ended this past weekend, so I'm done till May <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

good thought Tim. I might try that. However, my boards don't stay up very well. I had them faired recently and now I need to change the felt pads that hold them in position. I also want to get used to having them down all the time. I think Matt recommends that on the old boards.

p.s. if I put a righting pole on my boat, am I violating the class rules? "be able to right boat unaided..."

Completely on the off-side, but why did the season end 7th october? Too cold, or your launching ramp closed? I am curious becouse our club never "closes" as such.

Yeah it usually starts to get pretty cool from here on. We can get snow in October. The seasons change pretty abruptly compared with what I'm used to in NZ.

Although - this past weekend we had near record temps in high 80's.

Don't know about those folks, but down here we have a "120 rule". If air temperature and water temperature combined don't equal 120 F. conditions are considered too extreme!!!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm serious! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Keep the old boats down unless you have real control issues.

Most likely you are late in anticipating the gusts and are only bearing away when the lead-in of the gust has already hit. Try to start bearing off earlier and yes that means spotting the gusts earlier as well.

Wouter

MarkMT, the added force of the quick bear away will push the lee bow under, especially so if the boards are all the way down, they act like a fulcrum to leverage the bow down. Try a quick bear away in medium air, do a few with the boards up all the way, then half way, then fully down, you will see the difference is huge. And as others have said, try to look back, see the gusts coming and bear away before it hits, (and ease your spin sheet too) that will help keep the bows up.

No, unaided in that sentence means aided by another competitor/race official/bystander/etc. It does not preclude the use of a righting bag or righting pole or any other system.

I just bought the small righting bag and have given up on ATRS. I know tback will be happy.

Thanks Tom,
I went out the other day and was messing around and went over with the spin. Not enough wind to get it back and the wind was directly east and not blowing me towards either shore in the intracoastal. Eventually the wind came up and I was able to get it up but it annoyed me so I rigged a pole. Easy to do. Not sure how well it will work yet because I didn't feel like flipping on purpose. Seemed to add leverage when lightly tested on land though.

Whats wrong with the ATBRS? I love that system and live by it.

Wouter,

Do you know the section profiles of your AHPC rudder and the profile of Hans' rudder?

Would be good if can find optimal profiles for high-speed cats. There is some information on slower, highly competitive classses, like the 505 (they seem to prefer NACA 0010 or 0012).

Stein

Both are kinda secretative about their profiles. I'm not very impressed with the AHPC profile at high speeds though so I would discard that one. The profile used by Hans is much better. A while ago it was worked out what profile he was using, but as I had no use for that info I have forgotten what it was. It is not one of the common NACA profile. It is rather one of the much less well known ones.

Maybe ask Hans yourself ?

Wouter

I have a thud and a push rule.

If there is too much snow / ice to get the plates in the boat, it too cold (the push rule)

If I push the boat down the slipway and it goes thud (and not splash) it is too cold to sail......(the thud rule).

Have you told your wife about those rules? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

How's the ride compared to the big T chris?
Any of your OCR experiences factor in the boat buy?

For shear sailing pleasure nothing tops the Tornado.

But for the compromise/comparison:

downwind: F16 can plane on flat water (singlehanded) vs the T knifieing through the water/waves.
I have not double handed yet. I have not had it in big waves yet.

upwind: F16 with full bows you hear every wave hit the hulls, the T is quieter, wider, graceful and powerful.
Comparing F18 2up vs F16 1up, F16 felt like it floated hitting each small waves vs F18 pounding waves with authority.

The mainsheet was very sensitive, 1 or 2 inches of mainsheet would make the boat to tender in 20 kt.
The OEM downhaul needs some work, I do not think the internal system has enough purchase to easily play it upwind like T.
May get rid of internal system, if I go turtle the mast will fill up with water?

I like the versatility of the boat, where one can both single or doublehand it.

The helm responsiveness (quick & light feel) is about the same, since both are lightweight.

The nice acceleration is about the same. Complexity the same. (MORC experience very helpful for spinnaker)

The fuller hull shape, and light weight is what I noticed the most on the water.

In 20kt the boat was completely manageable(single without kite), which was a relief, as I did not want to go swimming.

I could almost say it feels like a small Tornado that planes downwind (with the right wind angle).

Great wind & waves,
Chris

Don't ! The alternatives are not better. The internal downhaul should be a 12:1 double cascading setup. We tried several different setups and this was the best by a significant amount. You are not going to win anything by replacing it.

You may want to check whether it is indeed a 12:1 (measure line travell) and whether it is double cascading (measure the height of the internal bolt/plate that holds the blocks, you can do this on the outside of the mast). Going to 16:1 will not lower the feel of line pull but will add alot of line to your tramp. Look at it this way 400/12 = 33 kg pull, 400/16 = 25 kg pull. Do you think those 8 kg are going to matter much on a total of about 30 kg ?

I do agree with you that playing the downhaul isn't comfortable on the F16's with the alu masts. The response is both to slow and too small. When singlehanding you are also likely to not have sufficient leech tension to make pulling downhaul on further practical. Basically, you are trying to bend the mast more by pulling very hard on basically a 3 inch leverage. This is never going to work. The F16's with an alu mast require alot of downhaul tension even in moderate conditions as the downhaul is taking out the initial mast bend and preventing the top from springing back and making the top very full when the mainsheet is released.

When the mainsheet is tight (and I mean tight !) you'll notice the difference in pull on the downhaul line, then there is almost nothing there. If you release the mainsheet the pull is back again. The very stiff pentex mainsails make this behaviour even more pronounced. Most 1-up crews tend to slacken their mainsheet before trying to pull the downhaul tighter when you actually want to do the opposite.

Experiences so far is to set the downhaul at a good average for the upwind legs and leave it there while you play the mainsheet.

With respect to water in the mast and turtling. Most water in the F16's masts get inside through the T-terminal endings of the diamond wires. Just rivetting end plates on the mast is a much better and cheaper construction but ... If you have these then seal them with kit and take tape them over. If there are no leaks in the top 3 mtr of the mast then your boat will never turtle. There is simply to much volume in the top to press the mast sufficiently deep under water to go turtle. As such the water surface will never got close to the openings of your downhaul system. Several of us also have sealing blocks just above the downhaul setup to make us feel better, but I don't think I would ever install one again.

Wouter

Wouter,
Have you come across any ways to "seal" a T fitting in a mast?

The Marstrom carbon Tornado mast uses a T for the main hounds. Although they've used expanded foam at the opening and also just above the lower diamond rod fittings, the mast will still take on water and turtle the boat.
First 2 times I capsized with the new carbon stick, I was surprised she just stayed on her side for many minutes, even in 25+ knots wind. The 3rd time I capsized, she went down within 90 seconds in only 15 kts wind. I suspect the foam seals had opened up some. Once we had her righted, you could see some water coming down & out of the mast from above. After about 1 min., this trickle turned into a huge gusher...presumably as the inner foam "dam" broke through.

I'm thinking the fill the upper T fitting cavity in the foam with body filler and then grind it out enough to place the T back in. Or, just body fill the whole T fitting in place and use silicone sealant to allow some movement of the fitting. Ultimate solution would be to replace the T with a standard flange, but I don't want to get too far from Marstrom's concept at this time (re-inforcing of the area would likely be needed and class rules are fairly strict on the mast measurements & tip weights etc).

Or you could buy a $5 tube of silicon goo, squeeze it into the T fittings, put some tape over it, and be done in 5 minutes.

I guess the hole for the T fitting is fairly large (it is for the hounds) and silicone may not be able to take the water pressure without additional support. This area of the mast will dip 2 or 3 feet below water even fully sealed. So there will be some pressure.

Might work, might not.