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symmetrical vs asymmetrical? #118945
10/01/07 04:52 PM
10/01/07 04:52 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 241
Largo, Florida
papayamon2 Offline OP
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Well, I've been trying to educate myself as much as possible regarding spinnakers, and I'm still wondering whether I should be looking for a symmetrical or asymmetrical for a smaller cat. Which do most cats sail, and what are the advantages? Do they both (or neither?) provide any hull lift? I'll be sailing solo most often if that matters.

Also, what would be the optimal size to look for w/ a 22'6" mast? Just trying to obtain the right one to play around with...

Thanks!
Kevin
Trac 14

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Re: symmetrical vs asymmetrical? [Re: papayamon2] #118946
10/01/07 04:59 PM
10/01/07 04:59 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 902
Norman,OK
gree2056 Offline
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Almost all cats run asymmetric spins. So I would looke for one of those.

As for that small of a cat, I would say something around 18 feet tall or so, maybe a little more but I am no expert


Once you go cat you never go back! Nacra 5.2 (Elsies)#1499, running an inter17 spin!
Re: symmetrical vs asymmetrical? [Re: gree2056] #118947
10/01/07 06:20 PM
10/01/07 06:20 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 241
Largo, Florida
papayamon2 Offline OP
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One other question: What is the most common system for launching and taking down?

Re: symmetrical vs asymmetrical? [Re: papayamon2] #118948
10/01/07 06:51 PM
10/01/07 06:51 PM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 902
Norman,OK
gree2056 Offline
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Most people use a snuffer for single handing but I have heard of people using a bag off the tramp, that is how all used to be done.


Once you go cat you never go back! Nacra 5.2 (Elsies)#1499, running an inter17 spin!
Re: symmetrical vs asymmetrical? [Re: gree2056] #118949
10/02/07 10:04 AM
10/02/07 10:04 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 241
Largo, Florida
papayamon2 Offline OP
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Largo, Florida
Still doing research... Is anyone out there sailing a symmetrical spinnaker? (I'm hearing to only look for asymmetrical, but there are some symmetricals around me pretty cheap.)

Re: symmetrical vs asymmetrical? [Re: papayamon2] #118950
10/02/07 10:40 AM
10/02/07 10:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 829
Charleston, SC
NCSUtrey Offline
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Symmetrical would be a waste of time on a catamaran, don't even bother.


Trey
Re: symmetrical vs asymmetrical? [Re: NCSUtrey] #118951
10/02/07 11:00 AM
10/02/07 11:00 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 146
Crofton, MD
Todd Berget Offline
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Crofton, MD
The reason cats don't sail with symmetrics (or any other lighter boats) is two fold:

1. catamarans accelerate so quickly that the apparent wind moves forward quite a bit making you almost always sailing a reach. Even when sailing deep downwind, you will find your apparent is actually at 60-80 degrees off the bow. An Asymetric is cut for sailing these angles closer to the wind. Most symettrics are designed to be sailing with apparent wind angles of 90 degrees or more.

2. The other benefit of a asym on a sprit is that the sail creates more lift on the bows (longer bow sprit=more lift). Catamarans like alot of lift on the bows (helps counteract the pitching moment from the top of the main).

You combine these two conditions and it becomes quite clear that the only sail to get is an Asym. You need to resist the temptation to pick up a cheap symmetrical because in the end it would essentially be a waste of money.

Good Luck!!


Todd Nacra 20 www.wrcra.org
Re: symmetrical vs asymmetrical? [Re: papayamon2] #118952
10/02/07 11:14 AM
10/02/07 11:14 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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The classic symetric spinnaker is designed to be used with a spinnaker pole that attaches to the mast, and you gybe the pole along with the spin, switching tack for clew on the new gybe. The Asymetrics do not switch tack and clew, they leave the tack attached to the end of the pole, and the clew is cut higher so the sheeting angle is right for a high reach, which is the point of sail you will be on most of the time, never being dead downwind, which is the only point of sail a symetical spin. would be of any use. You could try to use a symetrical spin. as an asymetric, but the sheeting angle would be all wrong and the foot might even drag in the water on a reach. You might be able to take it to a good sailmaker and get it re-cut to use it as an asymetric. You would still be better off getting a good, used, purpose built cat spin. though.


Blade F16
#777
Re: symmetrical vs asymmetrical? [Re: Timbo] #118953
10/02/07 11:21 AM
10/02/07 11:21 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 902
Norman,OK
gree2056 Offline
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Here is a question, on the original Hobie 14 they have gone back to sailing almost straight downwind. So if someone was bored would a symemetic sail work on one of those?


Once you go cat you never go back! Nacra 5.2 (Elsies)#1499, running an inter17 spin!
Re: symmetrical vs asymmetrical? [Re: gree2056] #118954
10/02/07 11:22 AM
10/02/07 11:22 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 471
NC
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NC
put a hooter on your 14 instead

Re: symmetrical vs asymmetrical? [Re: gree2056] #118955
10/02/07 11:24 AM
10/02/07 11:24 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Yes, it will work on anything if you want to sail it dead downwind. It will also work on a reach, but just not as high as we usually reach, with our high apparant wind angles and all that. And the pole would have to come off the mast at about a 90 degree angle, ie. off toward the shroud (like a mono dinghy going downwind) if you want to go dead downwind, our poles are stuck straight out front so they wouldn't work.

The early Corsair F27 Trimarans used a symetrical spinnaker with a conventional pole on the mast, just like any monohull would use. Then some smart butt (Eric Arens?) put a pole on the bow and a big asymetrical spin. on it, and the rest, as they say, is history!

Last edited by Timbo; 10/02/07 01:39 PM.

Blade F16
#777
Re: symmetrical vs asymmetrical? [Re: Timbo] #118956
10/02/07 11:32 AM
10/02/07 11:32 AM
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 902
Norman,OK
gree2056 Offline
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Norman,OK
I just thought about that, I don't plan to do it anytime soon.

I will have a spin on my 5.2 soon so I should get to learn all about it.


Once you go cat you never go back! Nacra 5.2 (Elsies)#1499, running an inter17 spin!
Re: symmetrical vs asymmetrical? [Re: gree2056] #118957
10/02/07 05:49 PM
10/02/07 05:49 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 241
Largo, Florida
papayamon2 Offline OP
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Does anyone have a rigging guide on using a snuffer that they can point me to? I understand the concept but haven't seen one rigged.

Re: symmetrical vs asymmetrical? [Re: papayamon2] #118958
10/02/07 06:37 PM
10/02/07 06:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 334
Seattle,Wa
Don_Atchley Offline
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http://www.gobarefootstudio.com/snu.html

Here's one of the best on the aftermarket right now.


Hobie Tiger 2003
Re: symmetrical vs asymmetrical? [Re: Don_Atchley] #118959
10/03/07 07:05 AM
10/03/07 07:05 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 241
Largo, Florida
papayamon2 Offline OP
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Dumb question, but I haven't been around asymmetrical spins at all. When you gybe, how do you get an asymmetrical spinnaker to the other side? Do you have to collapse it, change course, then relaunch it? Or do you work it between the slot in front of the jib in some fashion? Having seen pictures of some large-footed asymmetrical spinnakers, it makes me wonder how the process works...

Also, I've posted a question about the size spin I need to look for on my other current posting, "Spinnaker on a 14'?". I'd love input from anyone with experience. Thanks to all who are taking the time to help!

Kevin

Re: symmetrical vs asymmetrical? [Re: papayamon2] #118960
10/03/07 08:55 AM
10/03/07 08:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Jake  Offline
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you just jibe it in front of the jib (between the leading edge of the spinnaker and the jib). I think some "sport" monodulls gybe the spinnaker around the front of the spinnaker - but most catamarans have stopped doing that. It's really easy.


Jake Kohl
Re: symmetrical vs asymmetrical? [Re: papayamon2] #118961
10/03/07 11:16 AM
10/03/07 11:16 AM

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Quote
Dumb question, but I haven't been around asymmetrical spins at all. When you gybe, how do you get an asymmetrical spinnaker to the other side? Do you have to collapse it, change course, then relaunch it? Or do you work it between the slot in front of the jib in some fashion? Having seen pictures of some large-footed asymmetrical spinnakers, it makes me wonder how the process works...

Also, I've posted a question about the size spin I need to look for on my other current posting, "Spinnaker on a 14'?". I'd love input from anyone with experience. Thanks to all who are taking the time to help!

Kevin


Just make sure you put some kind of loop about 3' up on the front of mast and run bungee from corner of front crossbar thru loop and to other corner of crossbars. Put sheeets outside shrouds and bungeee. This will keep the sheets from hanging up if blocks are not on the crossbars. Mine our of the rear crossbar on tramp tracks. This keeps the sheets from getting hung up under mast. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Doug

Re: symmetrical vs asymmetrical? [Re: ] #118962
10/03/07 02:03 PM
10/03/07 02:03 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 241
Largo, Florida
papayamon2 Offline OP
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Largo, Florida
At how many knots can you fly a spinnaker before you just get really stupid doing so? I was out in 15-20 knot winds yesterday and wondered if a spin could have worked.

Re: symmetrical vs asymmetrical? [Re: papayamon2] #118963
10/03/07 02:17 PM
10/03/07 02:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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A lot depends on the sea state - but you can fly a kite in 20 to 25knots and possibly more. It takes some skill and nerves to do so in the heavy stuff though.


Jake Kohl
Re: symmetrical vs asymmetrical? [Re: papayamon2] #118964
10/03/07 02:17 PM
10/03/07 02:17 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 109
Fl
Kaos Offline
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Fl
Actually the answer to your last question was already answered (Yes). The spinnaker provides lift down wind actually making it safer (by not pitchpoling). Down wind the forces on the main will push the bows down until wind reaches the point that it turns over the boat. The spinnaker helps balance the forces so, some force is in front of mast and some behind mast, result boat rides more balanced. Also confirming, total waste of money to even consider symetrical spin. Don't even think about trying to have one cut down. Even the newer monohulls have no use for them, except in extreme conditions. For a catamaran it is the same as asking, "I am a guy, should I wear a bikini or shorts for a bathing suit?" It is just wrong!
Even a Hobie 14 will improve dramatically using a spinnaker to reach down wind. Also if you are trying to "fit" the wrong size on the boat, smaller/flatter is better than too big. Too big will be bad when trying to create apparent wind. Have fun and go for it.

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