Between the two of us, my wife and I weigh 360 pounds. We're keeping our eyes out for boats designed for somewhat heavier crews than our Prindle 16, which Wouter says tops out at 325 pounds - it sails fine for us, but we are sailing rather deep into the water. Our combined weight does seem to be dropping slowly, but it won't hit 325 any time soon ;->



What boats should we be looking at? We sail mainly on inland lakes, but would like to be able to sail on the Pamlico sound or possibly on the ocean. I assume most 16 foot boats will not have any more buoyancy than our P16. So far, people have suggested we look at the Hobie 18, Prindle 19, Prindle 19MX, and Prindle 18-2. Are these all good choices? Are there other good choices not on this list?



How hard is it to get a Hobie 18 without comp tips?



Jonathan

Incidentally, we are not racers. We want a fun, fast, comfortable boat, and would like to be able to sail under a variety of conditions. We'd also like to take friends and kids on board with us sometimes....





Jonathan

A perfect cat in my opinion would be a nacra 6.0.

Me and my crew together weight a 175 Kilo’s.

And we can handle is perfectly, the boat can also be very good handled by one person.

It listens very good and is easy to handle.

I used to sail a 18ft Dart, but we were to heavy crossing the waves (slowing down caused by water under the tramp).

Another advantage is that the spare parts for the 6.0 are easy to get both used and new.

I am sure that you can find a 6.0 owner who will take you on board for a tryout.



Success.

Hi J



At 360 crew wt the ideal may be a 20 ft cat design .

There are a number of excellent cats in this size range . Most are very similar , most in this size range have boards unlike the P-16 , but track to windward much better ,-- with a number of them listed in the classified section here on Catsailor at very reasonable prices .

-Hobie -Fox - Hobie M-20 --Inter 20 -Nacra 6/0 --P-19 -

are a few . There are also Supercat 20 and 19 s -Mystere 20 . among others .

A number of these 20 ft range cats have a standard spin snuffer or as an added option which is also fun to learn after the basics are under control .

The best way to learn is to get together with other cat sailors and race ,-there are very informal fun groups that race short coastal distances and buoys races in the N C area .

Racing to specific points teaches sailors how to sail most efficiently to windward and downwind , other sailors info on boat set up and boat handling increase the learning process 10 times , developing this sailing skill makes you much safer when off shore on any body of water .



- will send info ,-or feel free to send an e if you have any questions .



sail safe

have fun

Carl Roberts

Jonathan,



A hobie 18 would suit you nicely.



In fact, that SX I was telling you about might be for sale this winter.



-Tad

I concure with Carl. Having owned all on his short list and sailed all of them with combined crew weight in the 330-370 range. Hey! I'm 200 lbs of it!



My first choice would be the Nacra 6.0 -- it carries the weight well but, can get over powered quick for an inexperienced crew.



My second would be the Hobie M20 -- for a few reasons. First you can race it anywhere in the US. Generally, they are built very well - post 1995. and are fairly user friendly. ALthough if you race, everyone else will kill you due to the CWM is 295 (still - I think, its been a few years since I raced that one)



Buy one used! You'll have more fun and usually it will have all the bugs worked out.



Thanks

Steve

If you like the P16 than maybe going for a P18 is just the right step to take. That boat will take 360 well. I had both the 16 and 18 and the 18 with to guys on it (also 360) went well.



Wouter

JW,



All the posts are giving you great input.



Considering the intended use,...and it may be a little overkill,......try considering a used Inter 20.



Forget the race stuff, like spinnakers and poles,..take it all off ,...... bargin it out of the purchase price....just sail with the Main and jib..( if you REALLY want to be kind to your wife, put on a self tacking jib assembly)





...as you can see,...the price is VERY reasonable for top of the line technology and being 2-3 years old.....( $8000 range,...maybe less)





...the boat rides like a Roll-Royce and you will not have any fear for safety ........just a thought.



Bruce



St. Croix

My crew and I weigh in at over 400 lbs and have been racing a NACRA 6.0NA for the last year. I am very pleased with the boat, it is very well built and durable. Performance wise, it is a big step up from the P-16 and with that comes some trade offs. On the plus side you have speed, pointing ability, lots of hull volume, resistance to pitch poling, and reasonable pricing. On the downside, it is a powerfull but well behaved boat. Adding a furling jib could be a solution-it will sail well on the main alone. Another point is it a very busy boat with lots of control lines, but this could be cleaned up by replacing the jib lead system with a cleaner set up if you are not racing. Having dagger boards is another task, but they are well worth it unless you sail on very shallow water. I have had 3 200lb guys on the boat and it still moves! Even though a used 6.0 will cost twice that of a H-18, it is worth it(I owned an 18 for years) P-19s are also nice and can be picked up very inexpensive ($2000) but are much more fragile. You may also find some very good deals on a NACRA 5.8 (19ft) as they have been around quite a while. Good luck with your search-boat shopping is one of the best pleasures in life.

Hi Wouter,



Someone told me that the Prindle 18-2 is a wonderful boat, but said that the Prindle 18 has a tendency to pitchpole because it has less buoyancy in the front. Is there anything to that?



I do like the P-16 a lot, so a P 18-2 or P 19 sounds pretty inviting....



Jonathan

Ah, thanks for the detail here - I really love the simplicity of the P16, and setup and takedown time matter to me too. Would the P19 be closer to the P16 in terms of simplicity?



Jonathan

Thanks, Rob, I will definitely try to get a ride on one.



Jonathan

Carl,



I would definitely be interested in getting together with other cat sailors in the NC area. We are real beginners, and have an awful lot to learn, so I would hope these would be extremely informal races, but it sounds like fun!



Jonathan

Tad,



If a Hobie handles our weight well, it would have definite advantages since a lot of them were made and there seem to be a lot of parts available for cheap.



Does anyone know if it is possible to get a mast for a Hobie 18 that does not have comp tips? I promise to notice any power lines before I set it up....



Jonathan

Ah, I should have mentioned that I am a cheapskate! I still have to get three daughters through college and be able to retire while I can still sail actively. We got our P16 for less than a thousand, and I probably would not look at much more than a few thousand.



It sounds like the Prindle 19, Prindle 18-2, Hobie 18, and Hobie 20, Mystere, or perhaps some of the Nacras are the boats most likely to be available at the lower end of the price range?



Jonathan

All boats mentioned are good boats. However, from your previous posts the fun factor may get lost with too much boat. Things like forgetting the dagger boards down can ruin a marriage. Sometimes they stick as you beach etc. If out and out performance is not paramount, you are not class racing (much) and money not too short then the P19 looks good with centerboards. Otherwise the humble P18 is lots of fun, tough as your P16, and cheaper(about as fast as p16 upwind, actually a little faster with your weight, but won't die on you with a crew of four or so). It rigs up just as quick too.

Ok, Now that I know alittle more about what your looking for price wise coupled with the wife and kids comment you might want to look into a G-cat 6.0.



Before everyone wants to howl -- hear me out. Its bullet--proof. Two tramps, beaches easy -- pretty quick for a boardless boat. Good family boat and you can buy them really cheap. Even a 5.0 would carry the weight that you mentioned. Since you don't race then you don't have to worry about classes and the parts are all of the shelve.



Randy Smith use to say that it was the Cadillac ride of all beach boats. I think that pretty much sums it up.



Steve

Wow

Lots of recomondations of really high performance boats!! No questions to Johnathon about what kind of sailing he really wants to do. How likely is he to go sailing in 15 knotts... or is he really sailing in 10 knots and fair weather. How shallow is the Pamlico sound??? In many of the tidal bays, sandbars are constantly shiffing. A boardless boat or a boat with kick up centerboards and rudders is much more user friendly. How much weight can you and your wife move around on the beach...Will you be trailering the boat often and stepping the mast... Dead boat weight on and off the trailer will get old quick and stop you from sailing your toy. Similar... the raising and lowering of the mast are really intimidating to lots of people and require a good bit of stength or rigging to deal with.



There is no harm in moving up in boat performance slowly...I would recomend a couple of moderate jumps upward... as opposed to an I20 when you have sailed P16'.!



Boardless boats that would suit are the N5.7, the Dart 20 and a G Cat 5.7.... In addition, these rigs are boomless which is another user friendly feature for family and friends. These boats are noticibly faster then your P16 and have about the same level of conrol lines.



It does not sound like you are looking for a huge performance increase... however, a step up from the boardless boats would be the P18-2 and Nacra 5.5sloop. Mystere 5.5. The first has a boom and kick up center boards... the second is boomless with dagger boards. .. I would make sure that you sailed the P19, N5.8 and Hobie 20 plus all of the 20 footers in a decent breeze before you purchsed one... the power in these boats could be a huge surpise and much more then you want to deal with.



I own a Dart 18 and a Tornado.... I sail the Dart solo, and with family and non sailing friends.... Its simple, boomless and fun and extemely versitile. The Tornado is lots of boat (Similar to Nacra 6.0's and I 20's in power) It is not as much fun unless you have another sailor with you who can sail the boat with you...



Check out Mark Michaleson's buyers guide for some good info about possible boats.



Have fun.

Mark

>>Would the P19 be closer to the P16 in terms of simplicity?



Not really. All of these boats were designed a race boats whiel boats like H16, P16 and P18 were more designed as fun boats. Although fun in the old days (70's) meant more performance than fun boats today (wave, getaway)



See my other post too.



Wouter



Wouter

I notice that people say alot of things. And I can't best rebut any statements in the following way.



If you think that P16 sails well (Pitchpoling ?) than you'll be happy with the P18 (similar or less pitchpoling than the P16)



About bouyancy in the hull, there are far more factors that determine picthpole characteristics. One of those factors is length : width ratio. Ofcourse the P16 and P18 are of equal width with the P18 being longer. Another factor is mastheight and sailarea and so on.



Simple looking at bow volume and saying "That'll Pitchpole like a Dolphin" is indicative of reduced understanding of catamaran design.



A little more info on the Prindles :



The Prindle family can be devided in two branches.

Branch 1 : P15 : P16; P18 : Escape

Branch 2 : P18-2 and P19



Both branches were designed in different periods (exception is Escape) Branch 1 is of 1974 to late 70's and branch 2 is from 1984 to late 80's



Branch 2 is noticable more race oriented and can be compared to Nacras and Hobie's of the same time frame (N5.5; N5,8 TheMightyHobie18, H20)



Branch 1 had as main competition the H16, Dart 18 and G-cats.



Branch 1 : is noticably simpler in design. but also far more robust and will resist abuse far better.



It is my personal opinion that Branch two is better suited to affordable recreational sailing. As many know I'm current upgrade to a High Performance race boat, but I have decided to keep my P16 (Just sold my P18) Why, because in 20 knots and more I just love sailing that craft solo or with a crew and I don't have to fear sandbars or landing back onto the beach with 15 knots of boat speed.



I also love it's simplicity, especially under heavy conditions. And it is a boat that I won't hesitate lending out to someone else.



So when you say :"I do like the P-16 a lot, so a P 18-2 or P 19 sounds pretty inviting.... "



My reaction would be :" If you like the P-16 alot than the P18 should be on top of the pretty inviting list"



I fact it is just a bigger P16 with some extra performance and extra weight carrying capacity.



With respect to being of equal performance upwind as a P16; That is not my experience although I can see that a P16 sailed at its optimal weight 135 kg's (300 lbs) and a P18 sailed at it's optimal weight of 160 Kg's (just over 350 lbs) would be more similar in speed. But ofcourse for crew of the same weight the P18 would be faster.



I've talked about the Prindles in specific by this does not mean that other boats suggested are attractive.



Wouter