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portsmouth #124245
11/20/07 09:42 AM
11/20/07 09:42 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline OP
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I must be really slow. I just found out some of you really, really HATE portsmouth racing.

Without foaming at the mouth, would one of you care to explain why? I understand the dissatisfaction with the extreme match-ups; say Aquacat v Tornado. But between similar boats, why not?

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: portsmouth [Re: fin.] #124246
11/20/07 09:49 AM
11/20/07 09:49 AM

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I don't know Pete. I love it. More boats, more people, more fun.

Re: portsmouth [Re: fin.] #124247
11/20/07 10:47 AM
11/20/07 10:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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Some people, like Ding, fear math in all its forms. A trip to the grocer leaves him a gibbering mess. This is why he lives in a state with no local or state income taxes... the "%" sign makes him dizzy.

Other folks prefer to know where they stand when the cross the finish line, not hours later at the party.

Still others are convinced every boat but theirs has a "gift" rating, against which racing is futile.

Seriously - DPN has some problems right now, mostly due to not having been updated by the Committee in two years. Darline Hobock is now in charge again and you will not find a more fair-minded individual. New numbers in the next three months or so - Merry Christmas, Happy New Year. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: portsmouth [Re: fin.] #124248
11/20/07 10:54 AM
11/20/07 10:54 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,048
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Define "Similar boats". I don't think it works well when racing spin. cats vs. non-spin cats.


Blade F16
#777
Re: portsmouth [Re: Timbo] #124249
11/20/07 11:13 AM
11/20/07 11:13 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 109
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Kaos Offline
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Portsmouth is the best system we have. Much better than PHRF or the other systems.
Is it real acurate or "fair"? No. But it is better than nothing. We enjoy sailing and comparing boats, it enables us to do that. However it is just that. That are way too many variables in sailing to boil down to formula rating.
The biggest problem with any system is that darn wind. It keeps changing on you! Or has anyone noticed. The systems assume a consistant wind (which never happens). So the system will never work. However, it is better than sitting around compaining and doing nothing.
Sure, I hate portsmounth too. But I like racing more. So I will keep racing portsmouth.

Re: portsmouth [Re: fin.] #124250
11/20/07 11:15 AM
11/20/07 11:15 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Quote
I must be really slow. I just found out some of you really, really HATE portsmouth racing.

Without foaming at the mouth, would one of you care to explain why? I understand the dissatisfaction with the extreme match-ups; say Aquacat v Tornado. But between similar boats, why not?


Either you believe or you don't, and this subject has been done to freaking death.

Are you really that bored? Has the global warming thread lost its appeal? I'm sure you could revive the 'Why do people sail heavy boat's?' thread.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: portsmouth [Re: David Ingram] #124251
11/20/07 11:48 AM
11/20/07 11:48 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline OP
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No Ding, I'm not bored, I'm trying to work with what I have.

If we tested the "class" argument by reduction to absurdity, the regatta would have been canceled because no class showed up to compete.

I think class racing is the ideal, but right now it isn't the reality.

Timbo: Spinnaker, non-spinnaker, overall portsmouth. You can still break out 5 boat fleets.

We had a small fleet at Carlisle (no 5 boat fleets). I ended up with a 1st place trophy in F-16 (2 boats) while an I-20 that beat me by 40 minutes got nothing (I'm sure they corrected out ahead as well).

My point is not to replace class racing with portsmouth. Rather, when we have small, mixed fleets try to reward the best efforts, not what boat you sail.




Last edited by Tikipete; 11/20/07 11:51 AM.
Re: portsmouth [Re: fin.] #124252
11/20/07 12:02 PM
11/20/07 12:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
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We had 262 boats in 17 classes last weekend in Long Beach. The cats got put into the Portsmouth start along with 570s, 420s, and other oddities. The numbers didn't seem to work too badly - we were over early for the first start, went back and scored deep as expected. We hit one start just right, sailed a textbook race, and corrected out for the bullet. For a couple of the shortest races, all the boats corrected to within a minute - pretty tight. Ratings ranged from our 62.4 to 97.7. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: portsmouth [Re: John Williams] #124253
11/20/07 12:11 PM
11/20/07 12:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline OP
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Quote
We had 262 boats in 17 classes . . .


We had nine Cats at a wonderful facility, with great weather and a Saturday night dinner that was to die for. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Re: portsmouth [Re: fin.] #124254
11/20/07 12:19 PM
11/20/07 12:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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I wouldn't say I HATE Portsmouth racing, but I MUCH, MUCH, MUCH prefer SMOD racing my Hobie 16.

Why? Besides the obvious (it's more fun to be in close proximity to lots of other boats that are the same, so you can have more tactical situations, win outright, etc.), when you win on corrected time on a Hobie 16, it's always because your number made it happen. Except those time when you're actually physically ahead of a "faster" boat on the course, then that's just a bad skipper (you really shouldn't have beat that boat). If you're on a "slow" boat, you never get credit from the "fast" boats for actually beating them.

(EDIT: I'm not limiting this to ME beating "faster" boats, that's only rarely happened in the past 10 years. However, much better Hobie 16 sailors than I get the same reaction, regardless of what other championship titles they may have earned over the years in MUCH harder fleets.)

Flame suit on... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mike


Last edited by brucat; 11/20/07 12:25 PM.
Re: portsmouth [Re: fin.] #124255
11/20/07 12:56 PM
11/20/07 12:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Annapolis, MD
Is this the event??

Carlisle Classic 2007 - Multi Hull Results
Clearwater Sailing Center

You guys ran a race with 9 total boats and two boats each of OD classes F16, F18 and N20, with three boats in open class???

WHY?

The only thing that would be crazier is if you each had your own start!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: portsmouth [Re: Mark Schneider] #124256
11/20/07 01:08 PM
11/20/07 01:08 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
K
ksurfer2 Offline
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Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
I was there racing on an I-20 and I agree that it was silly to only award class trophies when the individual classes only had 2 or 3 boats each. Results were posted as overall, but trophies were not awarded as such. Overall it worked out to:

Ding F-18
Langefeld I-20
Bedgood I-20

Not too sure what happened after that, but I think it was Pete (F-16), then T-Back (F-16).


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: portsmouth [Re: Mark Schneider] #124257
11/20/07 01:09 PM
11/20/07 01:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 24
Florida west coast
writer Offline
stranger
writer  Offline
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Posts: 24
Florida west coast
The Carlisle Cup is a benefit regatta for the Clearwater Community Sailing Center. We had several classes on the bay, including Access Dinghies with challenged folks sailing. I was the PRO for the catamaran course on the Gulf. Anyone who wanted to race showed up. Great cause, great food, great RC. We gave out lots of trophies. And that is a bad thing how?

Re: portsmouth [Re: Mark Schneider] #124258
11/20/07 01:12 PM
11/20/07 01:12 PM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 124
offshore
peter_nelson Offline
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offshore
Portsmouth seems to work about as well in multihulls as PHRF does in monoslugs. As Kaos points out, it ain't perfect. Nothing is. Heck, even OD ain't perfect when the mfrs. keep releasing new models! Nacra has its Infusion. Now Hobie has a "new" Tiger! Of course, the penultimate would be the "one design" class of A-cat!!!!

But when it gets down to bragging rights at the BBQ, there is nothing better. If you want to get serious, go "one design" (whatever that is!). Otherwise, crack a beer, wait for the wind to fill, and go for a ride!


Time Warp Racing
Hobie 14, 16, & 17, Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 45.2
Re: portsmouth [Re: writer] #124259
11/20/07 01:21 PM
11/20/07 01:21 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Annapolis, MD
It's not bad to give out lots of meaningless trophies. I don't think I mentioned trophies.

Hell, Special Olympics gives out gold silver and bronze medals for fleets of 5 boats if memory serves.

I understand Special Olympics cat racing.... I don't understand your approach to cat racing. Why do you think this is a good thing?


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: portsmouth [Re: writer] #124260
11/20/07 01:21 PM
11/20/07 01:21 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
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Quote
The Carlisle Cup is a benefit regatta for the Clearwater Community Sailing Center. We had several classes on the bay, including Access Dinghies with challenged folks sailing. I was the PRO for the catamaran course on the Gulf. Anyone who wanted to race showed up. Great cause, great food, great RC. We gave out lots of trophies. And that is a bad thing how?


It isn't a bad thing at all! We're just trying to get more boats on the water. The organization was tremendous, the participation from the Cats could have been much better.

My concern is that when people don't show up, they stop getting invited!

The dinner alone was worth the registration fee.

Re: portsmouth [Re: writer] #124261
11/20/07 01:24 PM
11/20/07 01:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,152
tampa, fl
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ksurfer2 Offline
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tampa, fl
The racing was awesome, great fleet of sailors. I cannot thank the race committee enough for the job they did. The courses were awesome, and day 2 was challenging with wildly shifty super light air, but the committee stayed on top of it and moved marks accordingly. Again....great job, THANKS!!!


If your havin girl problems i feel bad for you son
I got 99 problems but my beautiful wife ain't one
Re: portsmouth [Re: peter_nelson] #124262
11/20/07 01:50 PM
11/20/07 01:50 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Matt M Offline
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Matt M  Offline
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Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Quote
the penultimate would be the "one design" class of A-cat!!!!

But when it gets down to bragging rights at the BBQ, there is nothing better. If you want to get serious, go "one design" (whatever that is!). Otherwise, crack a beer, wait for the wind to fill, and go for a ride!


There is a "One Desing" A cat - It is called the Unicorn. They were another regular A class boat at 1 point and opted to stay 1 design. Look what happened to them now.

Aside from the Alter Cup and H16 Worlds on supplied new boats there is no such thing as 1 design. Model year changes, deteriation of the boats, new vs. used equipment etc.

No doubt the preference would be to know exactly how you are finishing, i.e. a fleet of the same boats. This however, is not possible in many areas of the US and world, so rather than just pack it up as Mark seems to keep preaching, bring what you have to the event or there will not be any more.

Re: portsmouth [Re: ksurfer2] #124263
11/20/07 01:50 PM
11/20/07 01:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 24
Florida west coast
writer Offline
stranger
writer  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 24
Florida west coast
Overall results of the Carlisle cup:
David and Kathy Ingram 1-1-(2)-1-2 =5 F18
Karl Langefeld and Ben Keener 2-(3)-1-2-1= 6 I20
Dennis Bedgood and John Fodrk 3-2-(9)-3-3=11 I20
Bob Barton 5-6-(7)-4-4=19 N450
Clark Keysor and Patsy Shaefer (8)=5-3-7-5=20 F18 Tiger
Pete Pollard 4-(7)-6-5-6= 21 F16 Blade Una
Terrance Back and Tina Pastoor 7-4-5-8 (KNF)= 24 F16
Tom Hirst 6-8-4-6-(DNF)= 24 SuperCat 15
Charles Pickering and Kate Pritchett 9-9-8 did not sail sunday. H16
The Organizing Authority, of course, decides how the trophies are distributed among classes, not the race commitee. Dennis and John are the only ones who got deprived of a trophy if the OA had decided to go with overall fleet trophies. They had four sets of trophies. A decision was made.
Dennis and John have lots of trophies. The first time I wrote Fondrk's name in the Sailing column of the St. Petersburg Times newspaper the editor phoned to ask if I'd missed a vowel in his name. That was six years ago.
In this event there was ONE boat, a Windmill, in the Portsmouth class on the bay. He and his crew got a trophy. They supported the regatta!
Yes, we get more cats at the Saturday races at Gulfport YC. But we appreciate those who did show up to Clearwater Sailing Center this weekend.

Re: portsmouth [Re: Matt M] #124264
11/20/07 02:22 PM
11/20/07 02:22 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mark Schneider  Offline
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Annapolis, MD
Quote
so rather than just pack it up as Mark seems to keep preaching, bring what you have to the event or there will not be any more.

No...
Obviously you haven't read my numerous rants.

I believe that you race portsmouth overall... and split out your one design classes FROM that overall race... WHEN you can. (Carlisle... doesn't have three boats in a OD class)

Moreover, I think that EVEN if you get 7 or so boats in a one design class at a regatta... IF the OD class would leave 3 boats in a left over class... the Regatta Organzor should NOT give you a OD start or class.... In the long run... the three boats in Open will melt away.

Finally, I think you need about 10 boats in a class to have a reasonable level of competition within the fleet. Without keeping a close eye on this factor... the reasons to show up at a regatta diminish.

So... my goal would be 10 boats in a OD start and 10 in a portsmouth start to maintain the viablity of the sport over time.

You guys in Florida seem bound and determined to prove that OD is best... to the point to extinction!

But Take heart! ... you guys are not the worst.... the Mad catter awarded trophies to one design fleets of one boat... Now THAT is a way to grow participation in a competitive sport.

My question to you is... How do you think that a two boat one design fleet of F18's will grow the fleet of F18's.
It's been what... 7 years for the F18's... How is it going with this strategy.


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