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This one is for the kids. #124756
11/26/07 07:36 AM
11/26/07 07:36 AM
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phill Offline OP
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I've been meaning to complete the Blade 12 design for some time. I started the
design back in December of 2003 but never quite managed to finish it off.
The resurgence of interest in a very young kids boat, together with the shabby way
in which the multihull fraternity have been treated regarding the Olympics got me
fired up to get back to the design and follow it through until I have one on the water.

My idea was to design a craft for the very young to get kids into cats from the
beginning rather than lose them to the monohull club. I figured such a craft has to be
very simple and easy to control, inexpensive, lightweight, and can be rigged in less time
than it would take to rig a Laser.

The Blade 12 has a modern hull shape and should it be home built will employ a building
method different to that used in building the Blade F16. That is too time consuming
for this type of boat.
This new method should allow the boat to be built in less time than it would take to build
a similar chined craft.

The absolute minimum of fittings and the ease in which all components can be either obtained
or built up should make this craft not only cheap, convenient but also very accessible to the
average family.
The most complex part of the boat is the system to support the mast.
To make, it requires 3 weld joints, drill, hacksaw and a hammer. When the boat is de-beamed
all you do is undo the bolt in the centre of the rear beam and the mast support and beam fold up.
Undo 2 more bolts and it comes apart.

The scale model tests that I have done along with some calculations indicate it will work.
Having said that the only way to be sure is to build it and demonstrate.

I hope to commence the prototyping at the beginning of January.

Anyhow, rather than write an epic that no one will read I'll post some rendering of the craft
in several configurations. Like they say. a picture is worth a thousand words.
[Linked Image]

Attached Files
125870-PBBlade12cb9w.JPG (154 downloads)
Last edited by phill; 11/26/07 07:37 AM.

I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: This one is for the kids. [Re: phill] #124757
11/26/07 07:39 AM
11/26/07 07:39 AM
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phill Offline OP
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In this rendering you see the boat in the beginners configuration.
Here it has spade rudders & skegs. These allow the boat to be sailed in water the kids can
easily stand up in to help aid their confidence and keep them out of trouble.
[Linked Image]
With the skegs, rudders and mainsheet remaining on the boat all you need to do is slip
the mast into the sail pocket, stand the mast and then thread the boom through 4 webbing loops,
(Tack, front mainsheet block, rear mainsheet block and clew) and you are ready to go sailing.

Attached Files
Last edited by phill; 11/26/07 07:40 AM.

I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: This one is for the kids. [Re: phill] #124758
11/26/07 07:43 AM
11/26/07 07:43 AM
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phill Offline OP
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As the youngster gain more confidence and is looking for more performance the skegs come
off and the deeper rudders go on.
From my past experience with this hull shape in the conditions most likely to be used it will
tack nearly as well as a mono and lose hardly any speed as it does.
[Linked Image]

Attached Files
Last edited by phill; 11/26/07 07:43 AM.

I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: This one is for the kids. [Re: phill] #124759
11/26/07 07:45 AM
11/26/07 07:45 AM
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phill Offline OP
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When I build a prototype I will build it with removable skegs and test it thoroughly with
skegs and c/bs both with deep rudders. The purpose of this testing will be to quantify the
difference in performance and handling between the two. I will then decide if the difference
in performance is worth the additional cost of manufacturing hulls with centrecases and then
manufacturing centre boards. As the finished craft would be much cheaper with skegs.
There is little point in making this decisions without first getting the data to ensure it
is an informed one.
[Linked Image]

Attached Files
125873-12special4w.jpg (38 downloads)
Last edited by phill; 11/26/07 07:46 AM.

I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: This one is for the kids. [Re: phill] #124760
11/26/07 07:48 AM
11/26/07 07:48 AM
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phill Offline OP
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I am confident in every aspect of this design. The only area that will benefit from
testing apart from the skeg/cb issue is the most appropriate mast tubing selection.
There are several criteria that must be met in order for the mast to meet all the perceived
needs.
Finally I have to thank Florin for offerring to help turn my computer models into something more presentable.
He has done a brilliant job.

Enough talking, it's time to put down the keyboard and pick up some tools and make it happen.
I will start January 1 and post updates on my web site from time to time.
[Linked Image]

Attached Files
125874-12special3w.JPG (31 downloads)
Last edited by phill; 11/26/07 08:03 AM.

I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: This one is for the kids. [Re: phill] #124761
11/26/07 08:14 AM
11/26/07 08:14 AM
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japan
erice Offline
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wow! great pics, as you say a thousand words

how would it compare to the old hobie 12 and current bravo in terms of performance?


eric e
1982 nacra 5.2 - 2158
2009 weta tri - 294
Re: This one is for the kids. [Re: phill] #124762
11/26/07 09:07 AM
11/26/07 09:07 AM
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Annapolis Md.
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Wow!! That's too good for kids. I want one. Ed


Still hazey after all these beers.
F-16 Falcon #212
Re: This one is for the kids. [Re: erice] #124763
11/26/07 09:15 AM
11/26/07 09:15 AM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Quote
wow! great pics, as you say a thousand words

how would it compare to the old hobie 12 and current bravo in terms of performance?


You can't be serious. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Phil, that looks spectacular!


Jake Kohl
Re: This one is for the kids. [Re: Jake] #124764
11/26/07 10:17 AM
11/26/07 10:17 AM
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dave mosley Offline
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Beautiful boat, my 8 yo is learning the H14 right now, and races Opti green fleet, but he is a die hard cat fan(Im so proud!), maybe this type of craft(High performing easy to use boat)will be the ticket for all of our kids. Sully's Hobie 14

Last edited by dave mosley; 11/26/07 12:10 PM.

The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27





Re: This one is for the kids. [Re: dave mosley] #124765
11/26/07 11:21 AM
11/26/07 11:21 AM
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Coopersburg, PA
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Vinny_M Offline
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Oh my Phil,
This is absolutely FANTASTIC!! Honestly, I think if you can find a permanent builder for the boat, this class may take off. You should offer options as to home building or buying from a builder. Also, I know this may be a bit off topic, but I was looking through a Harken catalogue, and noticed they had a diagram of a beachcat that showed parts used. It was odd however that in this diagram, the cat's mainsheet system was behind the tiller crossbar. It appeared as though the tiller arms were longer, and the tiller crossbar simply was in front of the traveler tack with the tiller extension attached. This appears to be much more simpler rather than passing the tiller behind the mainsheet blocks every tack/jibe. Perhaps this could be a feature on the F12 due to its ease of use?

Well, anyways, I am very excited to see that you are going forward with this great idea and I can't wait to follow your progress. What is the website this will be posted on by the way?


~vinny~
Re: This one is for the kids. [Re: Vinny_M] #124766
11/26/07 11:23 AM
11/26/07 11:23 AM
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brucat Offline
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That is a beautiful design.

If you really want to compete with Optis, think MUCH smaller mast and sail. You could offer options (like the Laser) that scale up as the sailor grows.

Mike

Re: This one is for the kids. [Re: Vinny_M] #124767
11/26/07 11:49 AM
11/26/07 11:49 AM
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phill Offline OP
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Vinny,
I don't know if you noticed but the tiller cross arm is in front of the mainsheet so the kids will not have to pass the tiller behind the mainsheet to tack.
The Blade 12 is a bit smaller in beam and sail area than what the F12 guys are doing. I wanted to be able to stack it under the Blade F16 on a trailer.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: This one is for the kids. [Re: phill] #124768
11/26/07 12:01 PM
11/26/07 12:01 PM

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Phill, that is really sweet and its parentage is unmistakable.

I guess one important question in terms of promoting junior sailing is how to view the relationship between the different designs currently being discussed. There appear to be some significant differences in philosophy and design parameters. My assumption is that the Blade is intended to be OD rather than part of a formula class and so would compete with the other proposals directly. Of course even in a formula class different designs compete with each other, but with the expectation that all can coexist quite peacefully.

One view is that different OD 12' classes initially coexist in the market with the likelihood that one will ultimately dominate. Another is that the different designs may represent slightly different box rule proposals, and that ultimately one rule will dominate and spawn additional designs. However I think it is generally believed that a OD may be more appropriate for this segment of the market.

Interested to know if you have any thoughts on this.

Mark.

Re: This one is for the kids. [Re: brucat] #124769
11/26/07 12:12 PM
11/26/07 12:12 PM

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Are you saying that that this much sail area isn't safe enough or that the boat will be so fast it will scare the kids away?

I would have thought that the point of a multihull is to go faster. It's true that a certain amount of speed may be intimidating to a youngster, even if it is quite safe, but of course you can fix that problem by just buying an Optimist. I'm not sure that making a multihull more like the Optimist is the right solution.

Re: This one is for the kids. [Re: ] #124770
11/26/07 12:14 PM
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dave mosley Offline
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please make it strict one design, that seems to be the "Fad" that the monosluggers are wanting. No parent wants thier child beaten because of someone having a "better" boat.

Last edited by dave mosley; 11/26/07 12:15 PM.

The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27





Re: This one is for the kids. [Re: dave mosley] #124771
11/26/07 12:32 PM
11/26/07 12:32 PM

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Certainly agree, but with multiple designs around one thing is certain is that there will be winners and losers.

Re: This one is for the kids. [Re: ] #124772
11/26/07 12:41 PM
11/26/07 12:41 PM
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phill Offline OP
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Mark,
From my perspective I'm finishing a project that I started 4 years ago. It was always intended to be an OD.

Regards,
Phill


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: This one is for the kids. [Re: phill] #124773
11/26/07 01:12 PM
11/26/07 01:12 PM
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Jake Offline
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Mark,
From my perspective I'm finishing a project that I started 4 years ago. It was always intended to be an OD.

Regards,
Phill


yeah, I see a better OD market on this one. That's one cool looking little boat and although I keep coming back to the feature to go stay-less and wonder about that one, it sure would be quick to setup and reduce the chance for damaged rigging during transport.

By going OD it enables a manufacturer and designer more options to reduce cost - such as the stayless mast setup. This probably doesn't enhance the performance of the boat but probably provides some cost savings, setup time, and service liability...which is a good thing from all aspects of ownership. This boat is undoubtedly going to pack in a good deal of performance but to compete with an F12 would keep it from offering things that might be marketable to a particular audience (like the stay-less mast, skeg keels, etc.)


Jake Kohl
Re: This one is for the kids. [Re: phill] #124774
11/26/07 02:05 PM
11/26/07 02:05 PM
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Chris9 Offline
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WOW Phill. Very very nice. Maybe this has been covered, and if so I apologies, I just can’t take my eyes of the pictures to read for very long. It would be very good to be able to stack these for limited storage reasons. Like a laser rack.

Todd, screw building me boy the opti, build this.


Chris Allen
Nacra 20 Gertie
www.wrcra.org
Re: This one is for the kids. [Re: ] #124775
11/26/07 02:48 PM
11/26/07 02:48 PM
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Are you saying that that this much sail area isn't safe enough or that the boat will be so fast it will scare the kids away?

I would have thought that the point of a multihull is to go faster. It's true that a certain amount of speed may be intimidating to a youngster, even if it is quite safe, but of course you can fix that problem by just buying an Optimist. I'm not sure that making a multihull more like the Optimist is the right solution.


Correct, but that's why I said IF you want to compete with Optis. There has been a lot of discussion recently that we should have a soup-to-nuts training/development program for kids on cats. To do that, you can't scare away the six-year-olds (or more importantly, their parents).

There's nothing wrong with the design as proposed, so long as you're not trying to win over six-year-olds (and their parents' money and time). However, if we don't get them young, we may continue (forever) to lose them to the monoslug world.

Mike

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