Same here, No3. It is so simple to arrange the boards to have a single line pull up system for both boards.

I think its reasonable to assume that the kids won't be shown the boat on the beach and then saying all the best, this all comes down to probably the most important aspect of all of this, our help (adults/parents) I would dare say that the kids would be launched with us up to our...guts and the same when they come back in, initially anyway.

Since having kids, I never under-estimate what they're capable of....

Regards

Matt

What is the attraction for daggerboards really? Will having deep daggers and rudders sell more boats to the parents (like myself)? Will the kids use the boat more and enjoy it more in that configuration? Those were the questions I asked myself.
It is not a question of underestimating what the kids can do, but what brings most kids on the water, repeatedly (I have trained and coached kids, youth and adults in other sports. Kids learn and master skills amazingly fast compared to adults).

Personally I would want deep foils on a boat I was going to sail, but I am not going to sail that boat very much.

I wonder what non-sailing parents would answer to Phills question, and what would they answer after reading a short pro/con summary on the different configurations? Perhaps we should make a small print and do a private survey at work?

The question I have is - Are C/Bs worth, to the parents, an extra $1000 at least for their kids to have C/Bs over skegs.
This could increase the cost of the boat by nearly %20.
Is it worth this much?
If I were sailing the boat I'd want option 3 but the boat is not designed for my use so that is not relavent.How would the parents see this given they either find the extra time in building the craft or the extra money to buy such a craft.
That is the real question. How does it balance out when the cost is taken into account?
I appreciate all input and look forward to gaining a better understanding of how people see things.

Thanks,
Phill

Phill,

As father of 2 little kids i do see them running around like little monkey's and it looks they are able to damage things where you never would thought about so my comment would be keep it as simple as possible with the less damage possibilty items on the boat. Even the adult people do have a problem to keep there daggerboards/rudder boards in perfect condition. The change of damage with this items is pretty big, so i would go for no daggerboards ( extra costs when damage ) and the simple as possible rudder system ( rope system ) and the possibilty to put them vertical up when on the beach , you know kids are just trying to sail the boat backwards on the beach up to the cantine to have a sodapop. If the rudders are horizontal behind the boats the change of damage is increasing a lot.
The mainsheet blocks also to be as simple as possible and open structured, you know also that the kids will drop it in the sand and don't have any idea what it does with the ball bearing. They only will say it is not running anymore and the parents have to try to fix it, this is also with the mast assembly, if it is going to be a 2 piece mast be aware that there will be sand between it and that kids just roll the sail up around the mast and put it in there sailbox, if the parents are not there to help them then they will not clean it with freshwater.
With other words it has to be monkey proof and with the lowest possible aftersales costs.

Regards,
Hans

I am a father to 4 children. #2 gets my primary vote. I agree with Hans' statements referring to Monkeys. I feel that the D/B's add a degree of complication and safety issues that I would rather not have to worry about while my child is sailing.

Previously someone mentioned pivoting boards ala tornado or H-21 SE. Having owned a H21 SE, I found the kick up D/B's easy to use and worry free in shallow water.

Phill,

No! The potential of c/b case leakage, especially if the boat may be "accidentally" grounded a few times, is not worth the risk. Potential maintenance issues are bad "Dad...when are you going to fair MY boards?" "Yes, we like the boat except it leaks"

To a new sailing family (and I believe this boat can attract total newbies) one (well...two) less item/s makes it that much more marketable.
Keep it simple. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I found it pretty entlightning when I sailed and raced my F16 against a club member both when he had a Prindle 16 and a Blade F16. On the F16's we are now pretty evenly matched (him having had a season on the boat). When he was sailing his Prindle 16 he was always very close behind. If you made one or two mistakes then he would be along side you.

Yes a boardless cat will point a little lower then a boarded cat (except in very light winds where board don't do much at all, Andreas) but the difference in performance was surprisingly small. And we have to factor in that the Prindle 16 (deep V-ed hull) was both heavier and undercanvassed relative to the F16.

I now have some additional information about the sideways slip angle of both setup and the difference is only 2-3 degrees when going upwind and no difference on all other courses.

So my point here is why have daggerboards over skegs or deep V hull when the difference in performance is too small to really matter to the target group of kids/youths and their parents (who are not hardcore racing freaks). I mean what is 2min difference after a full hour of racing anyway ? A huge difference for Olympic sailors but all but negligliable for youths and their parents.

That leaves us the ease of tacking, but really seriously consider this a mute point as well for the following reasons. When you make a boat shorter it becomes dispropotionally easier to tack. This is easily proven by what many will call "useless mathematics". But if that doesn't interest you then do this experiment yourself. Get a long timber planck, hold it in water as a hull and try to turn it. Now cut the planck in halve and do it again. Notice how large the difference in resistance to turning is ! The difference is a factor of 4. And there are other reinforcing principles at work that make this ratio larger still.

Without going deeper into (mathematical and modelling) details I give you the final conclusion. By going to a 12 foot hull length and 65 kg platform weight with a kid as crew the resistance to turning the boat with respect to say an F18 is only 1/7th of the force related to the BOARDED F18's.

Of course the rudder area on the 12 foot will be smaller as well as will be the leverage it has, but even if we scale those as well then the difference factor is still at least a 1/2th.

How much more difficult will a deep V hull or hulls with skegs turn with respect to a round bottomed hull with daggerboards, a factor of 2 or maybe a factor of 3 (these are huge factors by the way). So if we simply entlarge the rudder of the 12 foot a little bit then we are garanteed to achieve parity in easy of tacking and turning with respect to the boarded F18 even when using skegs or deep V-ed hulls !

Now I can also make energetic comparisons showing that the Deep V or Skegged 12 foot hulls will not decellerated more then the F18 during a tack because of the above principles.

So ny final point is, how much more easily do we want the 12 foot to tack and turn, If a F18 feel is good enough then why justify the daggerboards ?

So my vote would go to the skegs or deep V-ed hull and normal kick-up rudders. And loose the large taper at the end of the rudder board. Just a small taper there will be enough.

Wouter

Phill, I have a question about your sailplan. Not a criticism, just a boat design question.

If you look at the two current production boats shown within this thread, the Opti and Hobie Bravo, you see that both use a "catboat" arrangement where the mast is far forward on the hull (Hobie Wave as well). Your traditional catamaran arrangement places the mast at midships offering a tiny tramp (~4-5 feet long) with the skipper far astern of a skeg boat's center of floatation. Also, your low boom is kind of a deck-sweeper for a training boat. There must be some other issues with boat handling in the catboat rig that made Hobie choose the Opti catboat plan. What are the advantages of a long-footed main as in the Opti vs the higher aspect Phill-plan?

Its been about 7 years since the last time I taught a jr. sailing course but what I do remember is the kids would inevitably venture over to the shoal areas (despite my warnings) in their optis and run aground hard. They would be ok, but on a catamaran at easily 3X or 4X the speed I doubt they would want to go back out.

Skegs work. I agree with Wouter on this point. If you have not sailed a skeg boat you just cannot comment here. And I do NOT mean an assymetric hull like the H16 or Prindle 16/18. A skeg boat is like a Nacra 5.0 or Dart 18. Skegs ends about 2 feet from the transom so the resistance to turning is far less than with the full hull length H16. Skeg boats point well if sailed correctly, tack quickly, and are a physically strong hull design. One or two small sailing errors on a board boat and a skeg boat will run you down. Kids don't need boards. Parents don't need the expense.

Hi Phill,
Personally I would go 3..

The plate will help kids right the boat.. Its easier to haul ones little body across a plank just above water line than a slippery hull.
Saying this I would see a reasonably stubby plate design not a ultra long wing. Then a piece of glassed shaped piece of ply would be sufficient.
Kick up rudders are fine but again reasonably stubby rather that long thin foils.. The windrush cats do reasonably well with their spades so I'm not really concerned one way or another. I would also look at parallel sided plates and rudders.. This would be easier for home builders to make.

If your thinking OD.. I would suggest looking at a cloth strop or device to keep the main from looping and catching on a wee laddie or lassies throat. The main pictured while great for the experienced skiffy isn't one for a kid who lets the main loose and thus slack when gybing!!

Just my thoughts.. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

All agreed.

But some things that sound complicated may actually be simpler and better choices than expected.

Before dismissing the idea, I would like to list the features of a single centreboard pivoting from the central truss:

- It needs no case, only lateral support (easy to build, access and maintain)
- It is external to the hulls and independent from them (no leaks, safer, cheaper)
- It helps right the boat (safe, fast and efficient righting pole style recovery)
- It doesn't interfere with the boom or take deck space (easy to gybe, difficult to bruise inexperienced legs).
- It is invisible both down and up (therefore not ugly).
- It is cheaper and easier to build than a board in each hull (but Phill is the one who can confirm this).


Another possible configuration change would be to replace the twin rudders with a single, deeper, daggerboard style rudder, also placed in the central frame.

Depending on project specifications, this could further reduce the price and complexity, while still yielding a fast boat compared to #2. The central structure would concentrate about everything needed to sail the boat: rudder, centreboard and mast. It would look a lot like an Optimist or Laser with two hulls. I guess this could help parents feel comfortable with the idea of a cat trainer.

What do you think?

no Waves here.. no M4.3s..

On the mono sides there are Pelicans, optis, mudlarks, JDs, Manlys, Flying Ants, Mirrors..

So where does that put cat sailing?
Ok we can side with Hobie.. If Hobie will allow me to build my own boat for my son and allow me to get someone to make my sails and parts as required.. Building plans are found where and how much?



<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LuiZ:

How would a single rudder work on a cat? It would have to be 6 feet long to stay in when you fly a hull! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Doug

Not necessarily, with a central rudder when you fly a hull going upwind as the rudder comes out of the water the boat would luff up and so it could be a "safety feature" preventing you flying a hull too high.

Gareth

I like the single rudder and maybe single board idea, It may not be the right solution but it is something I would like to try.

It is much simpler, is familiar to a mono sailor and is cheaper.

Gareth

Simple to use yes as there is only 1
Cheaper from a foil aspect also because there is only 1 of each as well.

Cheaper as a whole -No - as you have to create mounting and deployment fixtures on the cross bars which before were simply a plain round tube. This complicates the platform considerably both for use and the build.

no privately owned Waves or any M4.3s in Europe either.

I'm was told by a Hobie employee that they sell the wave here, but we haven't seen any boats on the water yet. I think the lionshare of the wave sales are to resorts.

The Wave had been around since when 1998 ? Up till now it hasn't caught on overhere as far as I can tell.

Wouter

How 'bout barge boards...

Would a system similar to the Tornado boards be a solution? I mean if the boards are "up" they remain below the hulls as skegs (they wouldn't go entirely inside the hulls) and if they are "down" they would be real daggerboards? Although this changes the center of effort, the mast position could be varied if necessary.