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Re: Wrong on Price Timbo [Re: Karl_Brogger] #127448
01/04/08 07:24 AM
01/04/08 07:24 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
veteran
bvining  Offline
veteran

Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
Used boats usually come with sails. New ones, usually not,with some exceptions.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: A-cat fitness levels [Re: BLR_0719] #127449
01/04/08 07:47 AM
01/04/08 07:47 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 75
Ljubljana, Slovenia
mayhem Offline
journeyman
mayhem  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 75
Ljubljana, Slovenia
My take is that the heavier boats are easier to sail imperfect. The wing mast and low momentum in an A-class means that you simply stop when sailed imperfectly-- that means no relaxation. There are only a few controls on an A-cat, but they must all be set correctly-- when the conditions are shifty or changing, an A-cat is a lot of work. You simply don't get home in an A-cat if you are not actively sailing-- you just stop; while most heavyweight cats can be sailed like beach resort rental boats and eventually get home.

Re: A-cat fitness levels [Re: mayhem] #127450
01/04/08 09:37 AM
01/04/08 09:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
old hand
_flatlander_  Offline
old hand

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
Quote
you simply stop when sailed imperfectly-- that means no relaxation.
is a lot of work.
Sounds similar to sailing a HP dingy or skiff? Devoid of the fact when you simply stop the boat capsizes, or am I over dramatizing?


John H16, H14
Re: A-cat fitness levels [Re: mayhem] #127451
01/04/08 10:37 AM
01/04/08 10:37 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
old hand
Mike Hill  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Quote
My take is that the heavier boats are easier to sail imperfect. The wing mast and low momentum in an A-class means that you simply stop when sailed imperfectly-- that means no relaxation. There are only a few controls on an A-cat, but they must all be set correctly-- when the conditions are shifty or changing, an A-cat is a lot of work. You simply don't get home in an A-cat if you are not actively sailing-- you just stop; while most heavyweight cats can be sailed like beach resort rental boats and eventually get home.


Hey Matt,

Been swimming in the Keys lately? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mike Hill

Re: A-cat fitness levels [Re: mayhem] #127452
01/04/08 11:24 AM
01/04/08 11:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

The 2-up sailing world has progressed a little since the Nacra 6.0 designs, my friend. Comparing an A-class to this Nacra 6.0 is like comparing a turn of the millenium lotus Elise to a 60's mustang.

I wouldn't sail a heavy two-up F18 or Tornado like a resort or rental boat. And I most certainly won't call 2-up boats like the Spitfire and F16's heavy.

If anything, it will be most fair to compare a modern A-class (like year bim 2000) to one of these modern 2-up cats rather then the aging Nacra 6.0.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 01/04/08 11:25 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: A-cat fitness levels [Re: Wouter] #127453
01/04/08 04:04 PM
01/04/08 04:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 75
Ljubljana, Slovenia
mayhem Offline
journeyman
mayhem  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 75
Ljubljana, Slovenia
Wouter-
For sure, the Nacra 6.0 was a brute of a boat designed for Worrell 1000 survival. The Inter20 was already a bit more civilized despite no major improvement in weight. I have yet to try the new HT class boats, but based on their designs I imagine that they are basically 2-up versions of an A-class boat. I don't know Spitfires at all and I am way too big for an 16ft boat. Tornados seem to be somewhere between a heavyweight F20 (like a Nacra) and an A-class.

Mike,
I still make sure I am fit enough to swim a mile or so if necessary. You never know if someone will not be able to pick you up.... :-) Actually, I broke an A-class mast in a particularly nasty alpine wind on the Adriatic called a Bora/Burija, but otherwise I have discovered that catamarans sail so much faster with the pointy end up....

Matt

Re: A-cat fitness levels [Re: mayhem] #127454
01/04/08 05:13 PM
01/04/08 05:13 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Matt M Offline
addict
Matt M  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Quote
I don't know Spitfires at all and I am way too big for an 16ft boat.


BS on that.

Please do not take this as an attempt to persuade anyone from their choice of boat, but generic statements based on impressions or comaparisons to boats developed in the 60's are not necesarily correct.

The tramp on the F16 is larger than on an A, especially when you take into account the lost room from the curved track and the boom is set higher so saying your too big for a 16 but not an A is not true.

The F16 designs with additional sail area and hull volume (especially compared to a Bim2000) are significantly less sensitive to changes in weight. I have raced between 115 and 155 kg with no noticable change in performance.

Keep your eyes open you may be supprised.


Matt
F16
A class

Re: A-cat fitness levels [Re: Matt M] #127455
01/04/08 05:29 PM
01/04/08 05:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 75
Ljubljana, Slovenia
mayhem Offline
journeyman
mayhem  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 75
Ljubljana, Slovenia
You discovered my ignorance. I know nothing about F16s..... see what happens when you assume....

Last edited by mayhem; 01/04/08 05:32 PM.
Re: A-cat fitness levels [Re: Matt M] #127456
01/04/08 05:35 PM
01/04/08 05:35 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
F

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
I've sailed the F16, uni, at 215-220 lbs. for over a year. I don't feel my weight puts me at a disadvantage. MY skill level, well. . . that's another story.

Sailing uni is physically exhausting when the wind comes up. If you expect to sail well you need to be in good shape. Fatigue causes poor decision making, which can put you upside down in a hurry! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Re: A-cat fitness levels [Re: fin.] #127457
01/04/08 05:47 PM
01/04/08 05:47 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Quote
Sailing uni is physically exhausting when the wind comes up.


More so than a sloop? Why do you say this Pete? Not taking a jab, I just haven't noticed a difference in physical effort from the my H16 to the FXone is all. Unless you're talking about the spinnaker then, yeah, I agree.

Re: A-cat fitness levels [Re: Karl_Brogger] #127458
01/04/08 05:52 PM
01/04/08 05:52 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
F

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
Yup, the spinnaker requires extra effort.

And, the Blade steers much more quickly than a H16. Outhaul and mast rotation also require more attention.

You got time! Drag yourself down here and take one out for a spin!

Re: A-cat fitness levels [Re: fin.] #127459
01/04/08 06:35 PM
01/04/08 06:35 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Karl_Brogger  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Yes, you definetely have your hands full with spin single hand. Not to mention boards and down haul as well. But that keeps it interesting doesn't it?

I would like to try an F16 one of these days.

I've already got two winter road trips planned though. One to Wyoming to go snowmobiling at the end of this month, and to Texas for some sailing in February.

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