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Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: _flatlander_] #127680
01/06/08 12:07 AM
01/06/08 12:07 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
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HMurphey  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
Wouter and Mark Schnieder make valid points and you would be well advised to listen to them. I have been racing Hobies since the early 1980's. I started on a H-16/#572 and then purchased a H-18/#9458 in early 1985 which I still have and dearly love. I have had my issues with Hobie Corp and the Hobie Class Association. But lets get back to Marks original question “How do you grow a class” by looking at some of the experiences I’ve had. Please do not shoot the messenger, but try and listen to the message.

My credencials are that since 1984 I have attended 150-200 Hobie Points Regattas and a similar number of Open Class events, being a member of Hobie Fleet #54 and CRAC.

My H-16 was indestructible., and great fun with its McGibbons sails. Then I was given a ride on a H-18mag …. my H-18 carries “red foam” 84’serial numbers on 87’/88’ replacement hulls . By the end of the first season the hulls were cracked under the lips for 3’ with most of the crack in front of the crossbar. I put up with a leaking , creased, soft boat trying to race it, taking me 2yrs of wrangling to get them to finally replace the hulls. Then they wanted to pro-rate them as 3yr old hulls. And the sails …. Why is it that I needed to have separate sets of battens for each mainsail??? Could it be that each one varies by sometimes as much as 4” in cord length! (I still have the sails … does anyone want to place a bet on whether I am correct or not.).

Please note that I just finally purchase a new set of H-18 sails: that Matt Bounds saw at this years NAs, and I was very pleased with the level workmanship and shape. But ….I ordered a plain white set, no numbers , no H . I wanted to use MY numbers that I’ve had and am known by … call me superstitious…. Actually my boat has all blue trim and originally had “blue Hawaii” sails and I wanted blue numbers and a blue H. No cost of ten numbers or installation costs thereby increasing your profit margin ….. and you wanted to charge me 30$ for NOT installing them, what marketing genius is that!!!! We get that by continually numbering the replacement sails you inflate the class’s apparent size … but us old timers like our numbers.

Let’s list how many times the H-18 class has been subdivided by newly designed Hobie products starting with: H-18sx, H-21, H-20 that had the same crew weights and similar adjustments. Combined that with the fact that the H-18 sailors could not get any changes or improvements to the H-18 because the NAHCA held its meeting at the H-16 Nationals. …. Do you think that there was any H-18 sailors at the H-16 Nationals ??? The last straw for me was that we had proposed that the crew weight for the H-18 class be raised to 310 or 315lbs to gain some separation from the H-16 class. This was voted down even though the majority of the H-18 sailors voted for it. This caused me to take my H-18 apart and sail my P-19. When Wally Meyers saw me at the Wildwood Classic in 06’ he shook my hand and said “Harry, how long has it been since you’ve been at a points regetta? 10yrs??? “. He was right, Wildwood 96” was my last points regetta

I am a member of HCA-NA currently, who is the H-18 class captain??? Bob Merrick is the H-16 class captain, not my H-18 class … or H-17 ….or H-20 …or Hobie Tiger … The impression I always have gotten is that we are “the red headed stepchildren” in the organization. Each class of boats should have a National and Divisional class captain and the classes should be able to propose, vote, and implement changes if it only affects that individual class. All issues that cross class lines must be approved by the whole membership. Simple.

And Hobie Corp must be diligent about QUALITY … QUALITY …. QUALITY … Gentleman, I can place in front of you a H-18 that weighs 395 lbs and another that weighs 435lbs !!!! That is One-design ??? And most recently, I am very familiar with Danny Flannigans boat, the conditions at the time and personally inspected the wreckage …. The port hull failed under load because there was poor surface prep of the mating surfaces thereby leading to eventual catastrophic hull failure by the delamination of the foredeck cleanly from the “hull” portion with no evidence of bonding between the two surfaces. … Us “old timers” know what we were looking at and you have used up a lot of credibility in Div 11 with that one. And the boat is still not correct , I suspect the replacement hull weighs differently from the remaining original hull, the mast is tweaked and the sails stretched from the wreckage recovery stage (… you did well boys… What did I read about ten years of credibility??? It gets used up very quickly with decisions like those)

So how do you grow a class? First, start with a manufacture that constructs the same quality product all the time, every time! ( and stands behind their product no question asked) Secondly, Have a class association that makes it possible for all to participate in and make decisions particularly those that effect them or their classes; and those that it doesn’t effect don’t get a vote. Be inclusive wherever possible, not exclusive.

How to destroy a class? HOBIE ONLY

One side comment, Wouter Hijink, Mark Schneider, and Matt Bounds have all filled out their profiles for example. Some of you taking potshots from the sidelines haven’t, choosing to hiding behind first name only profiles. I respect gentlemen who stand-up and identify themselves and their position, even if I totally disagree with them. You others, I call you WEANIES.

Wouter, Mark and Matt it would be my pleasure to buy you a beer (or other beverage) the next time we see each other. Travel Safe Gentlemen

Harry Murphey

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Rhino1302] #127681
01/06/08 01:21 AM
01/06/08 01:21 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
H17cat Offline
old hand
H17cat  Offline
old hand

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 917
Issaquah, WA, USA
Quote
H17Cat,

Out of 29 events on the schedule, only 10 look like they are points events actually put on by Div 4. There are another 10 "open" events where you are just leaching off of other folks who are nice enough to open their regattas to you. But you don't return the favor by inviting others to your regattas.

Doesn't that embarrass you?


Nope.

Just wanted to show what can be done with a group of dedicated Sailors. As Mike Hensel, Our Area L Rep on the US SAILING Multihull Council noted, most of the Events were created and will be run by our Area Multihull Sailors, most of which happen to be Hobie sailors. Mike was the leader in putting together this schedule. The few Open Regattas run by Yacht Clubs were happy to have additional sailors to make their events successful.

See the Division 4 Website http://www.div4.hobieclass.com for more information on what this group is doing.

Like mentioned before, step up, volunteer,and take part, you will be surprised with what will happen.

Caleb Tarleton
NAHCA, Div. 4, Fleet 95
Sail Sand Point Board Member
NAMSA Board Member
US SAILING Multihull Council
Youth Multihull Championship Committee
(and anything else that promotes our sport)

Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: HMurphey] #127682
01/06/08 11:48 AM
01/06/08 11:48 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
rhodysail Offline
old hand
rhodysail  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 894
Branford, CT
Quote
Wouter and Mark Schnieder make valid points and you would be well advised to listen to them. I have been racing Hobies since the early 1980's. I started on a H-16/#572 and then purchased a H-18/#9458 in early 1985 which I still have and dearly love. I have had my issues with Hobie Corp and the Hobie Class Association. But lets get back to Marks original question “How do you grow a class” by looking at some of the experiences I’ve had. Please do not shoot the messenger, but try and listen to the message.

My credencials are that since 1984 I have attended 150-200 Hobie Points Regattas and a similar number of Open Class events, being a member of Hobie Fleet #54 and CRAC.

My H-16 was indestructible., and great fun with its McGibbons sails. Then I was given a ride on a H-18mag …. my H-18 carries “red foam” 84’serial numbers on 87’/88’ replacement hulls . By the end of the first season the hulls were cracked under the lips for 3’ with most of the crack in front of the crossbar. I put up with a leaking , creased, soft boat trying to race it, taking me 2yrs of wrangling to get them to finally replace the hulls. Then they wanted to pro-rate them as 3yr old hulls. And the sails …. Why is it that I needed to have separate sets of battens for each mainsail??? Could it be that each one varies by sometimes as much as 4” in cord length! (I still have the sails … does anyone want to place a bet on whether I am correct or not.).

Please note that I just finally purchase a new set of H-18 sails: that Matt Bounds saw at this years NAs, and I was very pleased with the level workmanship and shape. But ….I ordered a plain white set, no numbers , no H . I wanted to use MY numbers that I’ve had and am known by … call me superstitious…. Actually my boat has all blue trim and originally had “blue Hawaii” sails and I wanted blue numbers and a blue H. No cost of ten numbers or installation costs thereby increasing your profit margin ….. and you wanted to charge me 30$ for NOT installing them, what marketing genius is that!!!! We get that by continually numbering the replacement sails you inflate the class’s apparent size … but us old timers like our numbers.

Let’s list how many times the H-18 class has been subdivided by newly designed Hobie products starting with: H-18sx, H-21, H-20 that had the same crew weights and similar adjustments. Combined that with the fact that the H-18 sailors could not get any changes or improvements to the H-18 because the NAHCA held its meeting at the H-16 Nationals. …. Do you think that there was any H-18 sailors at the H-16 Nationals ??? The last straw for me was that we had proposed that the crew weight for the H-18 class be raised to 310 or 315lbs to gain some separation from the H-16 class. This was voted down even though the majority of the H-18 sailors voted for it. This caused me to take my H-18 apart and sail my P-19. When Wally Meyers saw me at the Wildwood Classic in 06’ he shook my hand and said “Harry, how long has it been since you’ve been at a points regetta? 10yrs??? “. He was right, Wildwood 96” was my last points regetta

I am a member of HCA-NA currently, who is the H-18 class captain??? Bob Merrick is the H-16 class captain, not my H-18 class … or H-17 ….or H-20 …or Hobie Tiger … The impression I always have gotten is that we are “the red headed stepchildren” in the organization. Each class of boats should have a National and Divisional class captain and the classes should be able to propose, vote, and implement changes if it only affects that individual class. All issues that cross class lines must be approved by the whole membership. Simple.

And Hobie Corp must be diligent about QUALITY … QUALITY …. QUALITY … Gentleman, I can place in front of you a H-18 that weighs 395 lbs and another that weighs 435lbs !!!! That is One-design ??? And most recently, I am very familiar with Danny Flannigans boat, the conditions at the time and personally inspected the wreckage …. The port hull failed under load because there was poor surface prep of the mating surfaces thereby leading to eventual catastrophic hull failure by the delamination of the foredeck cleanly from the “hull” portion with no evidence of bonding between the two surfaces. … Us “old timers” know what we were looking at and you have used up a lot of credibility in Div 11 with that one. And the boat is still not correct , I suspect the replacement hull weighs differently from the remaining original hull, the mast is tweaked and the sails stretched from the wreckage recovery stage (… you did well boys… What did I read about ten years of credibility??? It gets used up very quickly with decisions like those)

So how do you grow a class? First, start with a manufacture that constructs the same quality product all the time, every time! ( and stands behind their product no question asked) Secondly, Have a class association that makes it possible for all to participate in and make decisions particularly those that effect them or their classes; and those that it doesn’t effect don’t get a vote. Be inclusive wherever possible, not exclusive.

How to destroy a class? HOBIE ONLY

One side comment, Wouter Hijink, Mark Schneider, and Matt Bounds have all filled out their profiles for example. Some of you taking potshots from the sidelines haven’t, choosing to hiding behind first name only profiles. I respect gentlemen who stand-up and identify themselves and their position, even if I totally disagree with them. You others, I call you WEANIES.

Wouter, Mark and Matt it would be my pleasure to buy you a beer (or other beverage) the next time we see each other. Travel Safe Gentlemen

Harry Murphey


Harry
Thanks for the well thought out comments. I've written some thoughts on the Hobie Cat forum where I think we could continue the discussion in a more focused way if you are so inclined.
Bob Merrick
HCA Chairman

http://www.hobiecat.com/community/viewtopic.php?p=42609#42609

Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: rhodysail] #127683
01/06/08 01:26 PM
01/06/08 01:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
addict
HMurphey  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
Bob,

Thank you for you reply. I've been trying to register for the Hobiecommunityforum lately as I have just gotten a computer (I know it is hard to believe). It would be my pleasure to meet with you for beverages/grub as we are not too far apart, I live just outside of Philly Pa. If you wish please call "Rondo" Laporta and he will give you my cell# and we can talk. (I could not send you a personal message)

And I do believe the H-18 is the best combined beach cat/racer built!!!
Sincerely,
Harry Murphey

Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: HMurphey] #127684
01/06/08 02:05 PM
01/06/08 02:05 PM
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 736
Westport, Ma. U.S.A.
Brian_Mc Offline
old hand
Brian_Mc  Offline
old hand

Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 736
Westport, Ma. U.S.A.
I don't race, but I'd like to someday. I do love attending regattas, and have some sense of the work involved in putting them on. What I have witnessed here in New England, is a real fragmenting of the fleets since the "Hobie Edict". In fact Fleet 28 is dead. Much of the volunteer energy for our regattas in the late 90s was from people that were sailing Nacras. They were far from leeches! Many no longer feel welcome at "fun sails" put on by my Fleet! I'm trying to work on that! I have to say that for me personally, it's been a big loss to lose those folks. Harry, I don't know you, but your post has given you big credentials in my book. Thankfully my quality issues weren't with a boat, but your criticism should really be listened to! I can tell you from helping Bob and the gang weigh boats, at the '06 H16 Nationals, that there is a very large variation in boat weights. I don't think it has to do with water retention at that level. That said, we're still trying to maintain and grow our fleets, and sport. I don't have the time to give these days, but I have tremendous respect, and gratitude for those that do, like Bob, Mike, Matt, and Caleb. These guys have been stepping up to the plate for years! Caleb and his club have done what many of us are really struggling to do, GROW their fleets! We should all try to learn from this generous man! On this forum, you can see many people volunteering their time and energy to make what happens happen. They all echo each other when criticized, and they are right in doing so. If we don't like what we see, it is our responsibility to get involved. Look at people like Rick and Mary, Barb Short, John Williams, Jake Kohl, Rick Bliss... Thanks for letting me rant. Brian McCarter, Fleet 448

Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Brian_Mc] #127685
01/06/08 02:26 PM
01/06/08 02:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
addict
HMurphey  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
I just love the line, "maybe they would come back (to Hobiedom) on a Tiger??" Let me explain my situation and this will show you how misquided you are in your thinking. The reason I moved from a H-16 to a H-18. At the time I wieghed 225lbs, and the crew wieght is what??? (285lbs-225lbs)= a six year old!!! So I moved on to a boat with a larger performance envelope, a H-18; Since to be competitive on a H-16 you have to 285- 305lbs and I was never going to be competitive in that class. So I got a some novel ideas: lets have a H-16/2 with a H-18 type boom including downhaul, mast rotation,and outhaul adjustment with a vertical-cut dacron sail to increase the performance envelope. Or you can just buy a H-18!!! It's crew wieght is what??? 295lbs currently??? And I don’t want a spin boat for buoy racing so the Tiger is not a option. If I had my option it would be a new H-18mag!!!!

Now I race currently with my niece Megan (12yrs old), and she will not race a H-16, "Uncle Harry there is nothing for me to do, its so boring (I'm just a sandbag). And this year she wants to get back on the P-19mx she sailed on at 10 & 11 years old!!! I'm just waiting for her to grow a little more because at 300lbs crew wieght the P-19mx is a wee-bit overpowered when the wind hits 12+ knots for us. The reason she likes the Hobie events is because of George Kunney, Dave Raliegh, and all the other people. She is still stoked about beating Dave and George in the last race at the last regetta (Sharkey's Cup @ Rehobeth)and getting the horn/gun!!! This year she goes to sailing school on a LASER as there are no schools for multihulls (currently). I believe Mark S made this same point

Why do I own a P-19??? Because when I purchased it in 1991 the first batch of H-20 Miracles was being RECALLED because of hull failures at the rear crossbars because of poor assembly/workmanship!!! (Do any of you remember this, how about you, Rich McVeigh, I seem to remember you having one) Remember, I had been through the "RED FOAM" H-18 issues and I do not like repeating mistakes. I have watched Hobie Corp make the same mistakes time ... after time .... after time ... Hobie Quality??? I laugh "french-like" in your direction !!!! ( I apologize to you Frenchman out there) Now do you understand why I’m so interested in Danny Flannigans issues ??? and his 1-2 yr old boat. Hobie just repeated their old mistakes AGAIN !!!! Remember: QUALITY … QUALITY …. QUALITY !!!!!

Now Matt Bounds: I looked at your list of HCA-NA people, lets see, Bob Merrick: H-16 , Rich McViegh: H-16, Paul Ulibarri: race committee ( and an excellent one at that, Thanks Paul) Chris Wessels: H-16? , John Mork: H-16? , Lori Mohney: H-16 or Tiger ? Do we see a trend? Now are you beginning too understand why the rest of us are just plain fed up. I am just tired of beating my head against the H-16 power structure/elitism that I percieve and see in HCA-NA . Who knows if I’ll re-up this year. I need to see some changes!!!

Next: “ Unfortunately the decision (Hobie Only) came 3 or 4 years too late” . POORLY THOUGHT OUT DECISIONS ARE NEVER TOO LATE ….. BUT ARE TOO EARLY!!!

And the evidence is that is was a very poor decision, please, why don’t you count the number of lost regattas, in SE USA, New England, the Midwest …. There has been time enough to see if this “Hobie Only” program is working …. IT’S NOT! It is time to “can it” while there is something to salvage!!!

Note: Matt, keep working on the youth program, that is our future. Please remember what I said at the H-18NAs and Rehobeth about the youths at other Championships other then the Youths Championships. At the H-18NAs by my count 1/3 of the boats participating had a youth on board. Give me two or three more years and Megan will be competing as “skipper” most likely on a H-18 at the NAs , remember by 12 yrs old she has outgrown the H-16 already and will not go back. And I know of several others (kids) with the same opinion …. They are smart and technically inclined, (they are better educated at their age then I was!)

Note 2: to Bob M , Danny’s issues were solved too Hobie Corps satisfaction … not his. If I may use an example: Hobie Corp is pulling a “FIAT” , you remember FIAT cars, they blamed the customers for their quality issues …. And what happened to FIAT???? One bad quality issue can cost you immencely more in future sales then the replacement cost of the original. Marketing studies in the auto industry show that it is greater then 18 to 1. And all the resulting damage to the mast/sails is because of the original hull failure at 1 mile out at sea where the priority was to save Ryan and Dannys lives. Hobie Corp should replace the WHOLE boat. If it was a wrecked car what would you like to be done with it??? Me … Total It !!!
I am at your disposal sir, please contact me at your convience.

Sincerely
Harry Murphey

Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Brian_Mc] #127686
01/06/08 02:48 PM
01/06/08 02:48 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
HobieZealot wrote

Once again what is YOUR CLASS doing to grow YOUR CLASS?
Anyone.....Buller.....Buller?

The HC ASSOCIATION... is an association of OD classes. Those guys are doing their job... (lord knows I have one difference with them but that is NOT the point here... please stop the silliness or start your own thread)

I am still waiting along with HobieZelot to hear anything from a OD class!

My initial question was just focused on National Particpation as reflected by the survey... but heck... anything positive would be good to hear.

And don't say... I leave it up to my association...

That is a cop out... the usual definition of class... is those individuals who sail ONE type of boat that create amd follow a specfic set of rules to foster fair competition. Give Bob a call! take the job!

Where are the Nacra 20 and 17 fleets? What are they up to to grow participation at the nationals.

Are you guys planning on pinning it all on Jack Young, aka the association? It did not seem fair to lay it all on him in my last post.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Mark Schneider] #127687
01/06/08 04:40 PM
01/06/08 04:40 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
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HMurphey  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
Just to be fair to all guys, and not only pick on Hobie I have stated that I own a P-19mx. I am interested in attending the NACRA Nationals this year in Michigan. Will there be a class for me??? It seems to me that inorder to "build a class" you need to be invited to the parties.

And I'll state the same thing as I did before: I am NOT interested in a spin boat for closed course buoys racing, and will never purchase a boat for that purpose. I am very happy with my P-19mx sloop (as I am with my H-18mag sloop). Do you notice a trend?

What do we need to get that class going again???

Oh, I've tried posting a E-Mail at the website but I have "server" issues. Or am I being "shined on" since I do not have a nice new boat to play with?

Harry

Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: HMurphey] #127688
01/06/08 04:52 PM
01/06/08 04:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
mbounds Offline
Pooh-Bah
mbounds  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI
I don't want to get in the way of a good rant, but:

Bob Merrick - H-16, H-14
Chris Wessels - H-20, H-16, H-14, Wave
John Mork - H-20, H-16, H14
PU - H-17 (retired)
Lori Mohney - H-16, former H-20
Myself - H-17, H-16, Tiger, H-14, former H-18

Steve Cooley (MUST429 on this forum) is hardcore H-18 (2nd at North Americans last year) and is the Division 5 Chair.

Strange as it may seem, the H-18 is still an ISAF International Class and changes in the class rules are controlled by the IHCA (not the North American HCA) and ISAF.

Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: mbounds] #127689
01/06/08 05:09 PM
01/06/08 05:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
old hand
_flatlander_  Offline
old hand

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
And watch out, Mork bought a 17 at the end of last season (another strong class in Div 14).

As you've said before Matt, the 18 is a (over minimum) weight tolerant boat and the 20 even more so (both 295# crew min). We're racing a '94 model at 305 to 310 and wish we weighed 330 plenty of times. OK, heard all the horror stories about the earlier 20's and transom problems. Ours is fine, we keep the beam bolts tight and watch for cracks (none yet). Doesn't George have a 20 as well as an 18?

Much gratitude for Wessels ('05 18/20 NAC, '06 14 NAC) and Mork ('06 18/20 NAC) and the countless others of both Divisions 7 and 14 who keep these events continuing on.

John Eaton
Hobie Fleet 297 - commodore
Hobie Division 14 - treasurer
Kansas Sailing Association - vice commodore


John H16, H14
Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: _flatlander_] #127690
01/06/08 10:11 PM
01/06/08 10:11 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
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HMurphey  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
Hi Matt,

Did you just prove my point? On examination of the list you posted, everyone except Paul Ulibarri, sails on a H-16, some have a singlehand boat,(for when they don't have crew I quess) and a few have a H-20 also, but are there any active H-18 sailors on your origonal list? So 5 of 6 sail a H-16, that is that is 83.3% of the leadership are H-16 sailors. Now part of that is our (H-18s) fault because we haven't stepped up to the plate and taken our turns at bat.

I just sent a E-Mail to Mr Bob M. could you please E-Mail him and ask him to copy you as you do not have a E-Mail address in your profile. Look at whos name I mention.

Great job at the H-18NAs this year, I will be proud in the future to say "I raced a Championship with Paul Ulibarre as PRO" and you were part of that. And as I said earlier I will gladly buy you a beverage of your choice at our next meeting.

Does the H-18 need to be an International class anymore? When was the last International Championship? Maybe it time to do our own thing and show IHCA the door on this one. I know that I'm not planning to go to an International event anytime soon on a H-18.

As for Mr Cooley, that bum ... actually Steve is welcome to borrow anything from my sailbox anytime!!! And my cooler is always open to Steve. It was my pleasure to have my butt kicked by Steve at the H-18NAs this year.

But Steve; Megan and I beat George and Dave in the last race at the last regetta this year, Matt Bounds may have witnessed it, we are starting to get "in the groove". And Glenn and I are assembling a H-18 with NEW sails for Glen and Ian next year. The sail # will be 1400 of course, we are calling her "the Phoenix" as she is assembled from parts. How was the trip to Miami??? Could we talk you into coming east??? If you fly in we will find you a boat to use.

Travel Safe Gentlemen
Harry

Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: HMurphey] #127691
01/07/08 08:29 AM
01/07/08 08:29 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 216
Lakewood, Colorado
MUST429 Offline
enthusiast
MUST429  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 216
Lakewood, Colorado
Quote

Does the H-18 need to be an International class anymore? When was the last International Championship? Maybe it time to do our own thing and show IHCA the door on this one. I know that I'm not planning to go to an International event anytime soon on a H-18.


To answer those particular questions/statements, I would say YES the H-18 should remain an international class. Lets not move backwards anymore than we already have. The last World Championships sailed on the H-18 was in January of 2005 in Melbourne Australia, I was there. The 2007 H-18 NA's was just that, a North American's with three teams from Canada.
The 2008 NA's is a North American's, not just a National's.
The Canadian's are hoping there will be more than a few boats from the USA. So, Harry, you HAVE and ARE Planning to attend International Events on your Hobie 18

I have resisted weighing in on this discussion thus far, If you go back and read the original post, it was more a call to strengthen individual classes, not an invitation to bash Hobiedome. I disagreed vehmenently with the "Hobie Edict" at the time it was enacted. I still think it was a poorly thought out solution to the problems that existed at the time. Fixing the problems that exist today is an equally difficult problem. Trying to impose a one size fits all solution to an organization as widely divergent as the Hobie Class Association is almost impossible. What works in Colorado will not work in the North East, what works in the North East may not work on the Gulf Coast of Texas, and California is a completlely different bucket of worms. Open minds, communication and calm discussion are the keys. Trying to resolve it on a forum like this will not be productive.

Stephen
Hobie 18


Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass...
It's about learning to dance in the rain
Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: MUST429] #127692
01/07/08 09:28 AM
01/07/08 09:28 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote
If you go back and read the original post, it was more a call to strengthen individual classes, not an invitation to bash Hobiedome.


EXACTLY!

For some other successful examples:
The Hobie 16 CLASS organized and had a trailer built to get boats back and forth to major national events and they used it to get boats to the Nationals on the West Coast.

The Lightning class provides a boat (s) for charter for a year to a new team to get you to their nationals.

The 505 class uses Sailing Anarchy Forum to get their class out. They ( a specific high profile class member) CALLED YOU OUT… if you were not registered… Heck… they TELL YOU to SELL YOUR BOAT to someone who will race it. Or put the pressure on for you to charter it to somebody who will race it.

In My Class, the Regional A Class Fleet Chairman, strongly promoted participation for the nationals to members of the Bristol YC and Lake Hopactong YC as well as to the Florida Gulf port fleets for the Nationals on the Chesapeake Bay. He busted his buns finding sponsors as part of the regatta management team.

Sounds like there is some recognition that some of the Hobie 18 members might step up and address the issue off line. an iniative strongly supported by Bob Merrick Terrific!

On the other hand... it is frequently forgotton to let the rest of the world know what exactly you have decided to do ... or not do. Growing your class involves letting the world know what you are up to.... As the Thistle comment by flatlander noted... the boat is a PIA to sail... BUT... they all racing... So people continue to join the class because that is how they PR themselves to the world.

The 18 Class goals could be very different from the Hobie 16 goals vis a vis NAs. Just an idea... It may make more sense for a class to say... "We are concentrated on both of the coasts. Rather then a North Americans every year... we will host East and West Coast champinoships every year and a North Amercan championship every other year alternating between the coasts.

Setting it out as goal would allow the class members to organize life to support the class effort more vigorously.

As must429 said.... every class situation is different. Communication is key... I would only add... let the rest of the community know what you are up to.

Back to the thread...

What could your class do to support national attendance?
Are you willing to do it?


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: _flatlander_] #127693
01/07/08 09:32 AM
01/07/08 09:32 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Quote
1) H16 58.00
2) H20 29.33
3) H17 27.33
4) H14 22.00
5) F18 help...what are the results for '06? '05=20 '07=22?
6) Wave - no updates after '04
7) TheMightyHobie18 16.33
8) F17 14.33
9) N20 10.00
10) missing a Cat class?

No jabs, but it was difficult to get other than Hobie info, double check the Performance numbers.

Hmm! I am a bit late getting into this thread.., sorry.
What info did you get and from where? The Wave has been extremely active over the past 10 years east of the Mississippi and appears to be gaining traction in the northwest.
Mary and I belong to two yacht clubs: Put-in-Bay YC on Lake Erie in the summer and Upper Keys Sailing Club in the Florida Keys in the winter.
When we started sailing Waves at PIB there were four of us. Mary, myself and my brother and sister-in-law. We now have grown to over 10 boats. This past summer we got in 68 series races, not counting regattas.

In the Keys, we started out with Mary and I, my son, and now his wife and Chip and Barb Short. We are now up to 15 boats and again do series races. Last winter we got in 60 series races, not counting regattas.

Both fleets have grown quickly and are attracting more and more sailors: new, young, old, women, men, et al.
And both fleets are getting tremendously competitive.., no one dominates. Our PIB guy, new to cats a couple of years ago, won the nationals last year. My daughter-in-law, new to sailing three years ago, took third overall in the nationals and first in Womens.
In both locations starts are as if you were in a major regatta -- great sailing!

And around the country we have some great pockets (fleets) that are also growing:
Sandy Hook, NJ
Duck, NC (Outer Banks)
Put-in-Bay, Ohio (Lake Erie)
Pensacola Beach, FL
Melbourne, FL
Ruskin, FL (on Tampa Bay)
Indianapolis, IN (new fleet just starting up)

This past year we had the following National Series Regattas:
North Americans
North Coast Championships
East Coast Championships
Atlantic Coast Championships
South Coast Championships
Nationals
Tradewinds Series

While many do not think the Wave is a "REAL" boat, it is the simplest boat and the most one-design anywhere -- it is the jockey, not the horse that does well.
And it is a class that is growing tremendously.
It can be your mainstay (many teams, i.e., H16 sailors that were getting to heavy or old, perhaps) split up and get two Waves,
or it can be your second boat. Keep on sailing as a team, and each sail your own Wave at Wave events.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Don_Atchley] #127694
01/07/08 01:33 PM
01/07/08 01:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 308
Reno NV
R
Rhino1302 Offline
enthusiast
Rhino1302  Offline
enthusiast
R

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 308
Reno NV
Quote
Quote
H17Cat,

Out of 29 events on the schedule, only 10 look like they are points events actually put on by Div 4. There are another 10 "open" events where you are just leaching off of other folks who are nice enough to open their regattas to you. But you don't return the favor by inviting others to your regattas.

Doesn't that embarrass you?


This is just plain ignorance!

Meaning, that I'm not calling you stupid. Just that you don't have your facts straight.

When did supporting an event held at a Yacht Club become leaching?
I sure don't feel like I'm leaching when I hand them my check.
I look at this as a win-win. It provides more both sides the opportunity to educate themselves. The multihulls get to see and interact with a club. The monohulls get to see a cat's speed and meet the sailors.
Wow, that's just crazy. Almost as crazy as the ski resorts allowing snowboarders to pay for a lift ticket. Damn those snowboarders. Leeching off the ski resorts.

We're operating under the premise that what's good for the sport will be good for our choice of boat too. Which just happens to be a Hobie. The focus is on outside exposure and youth particapation.


One of the reasons that monohullers tell me that they disrespect cat sailors is that we don't give back. We go to their events, but rarely help out or put on events for them.

Entrance fees cover very little of what it takes to put on a regatta. Most of the actual cost of putting on a regatta is donated labor.

Put it this way, say there are two ski areas where the labor is all volunteer. At one area the volunteers are all skiiers, but they welcome both skiiers and snowboarders. At the other the volunteers are all snowboarders, and only snowboarders are welcome. Don't you think the skiiers would be unhappy?

Sorry for the threadjack, I'll shut up now.

Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: Rhino1302] #127695
01/07/08 01:50 PM
01/07/08 01:50 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
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HMurphey  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
Hi Steve,

I stand corrected, I quess I AM a International sailor! I hadn't thought of it that way. I quess I was blinded by the fact its the HCA-NA: it one organization, there is no seperation beween the Canadians and Americans above the Divisional level.

I don't mean to sound like I'm "Hobie Bashing" In several other threads I have praised the H-18 (and even the H-16) as being the best beach cats. But over the years I have seen some really stupid things done. So much so that I actually took my H-18(mag) apart and put it behind the shed in the back yard for almost 10 yrs. I was just too hardheaded to sell her, she (my H-18)has seen me through some awesome weather and GREAT times. But as the quote goes "those that do not study history a destined to repeat it". I just do not like to repeat mistakes over and over again, I just can not afford the time or it financially. So, thats why I am so vocal at times.

The problem seems to be that in order to get any changes to the H-18 you need to go through IHCA and that is problematic if only for the enertia of the larger organization. At the H-18NAs this year remember our issues, mine of the little pullies on my trap system on the bungies at the hull pass-through fittings and you with your mainsheet blocks. We both agreed that neither would affect the boats performance/speed but were only for the crews comfort or to extend the life of the bungie cords. But some persons, who will remain nameless, wanted to "rattle" our cages and try and gain an advantage over us instead of trying to beat us on the race course. Why can't we get minor changes like those implimented???

I would like to go to Harrington BC but the reality for me is that it may cost too many$$$ and take too much time. For me here in DIV11 I calculate that it will be a 5 week cycle with shipping time (by container) included. The Div11 trailer will be needed for the Junior Championships and the H-16NAs in Clear Lake Iowa, and again the events are schedule too close together for the logistics required. We'll have to see ...

And this thread has made me aware personally that I have to be more involved, thats my responcablity!!!

Harry M

Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: HMurphey] #127696
01/07/08 03:21 PM
01/07/08 03:21 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
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brucat  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Harry,

There is a simple process to propose rule changes for the Hobie classes. Go to the IHCA website and post your proposed change. It will be circulated for comment and voted on. Look at all the Tiger changes through the years, they've all gone through the same process.

I was in NY, but never heard any discussion about the trap question. If you were certain that you met the intent of the rules, you could have used your trap system, and wait for it to be taken it to protest, where you would have either won, or would be able to get it appealed. One way or another, I'm sure it didn't affect anyone's ability to beat the other on the water, but you would have a final answer intead a lifetime of grumbling about it later...

EDIT: Strict adherence to our class rules is one of the strengths of the Hobie class. We don't expect this to make everyone happy either, but our numbers seem to indicate that it works for the majority.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 01/07/08 03:27 PM.
Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: RickWhite] #127697
01/07/08 03:39 PM
01/07/08 03:39 PM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
old hand
_flatlander_  Offline
old hand

Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
Rick,

Quote
What info did you get and from where?
I went here Wave Results I didn't know where else to go (on the internet). Again, it took some effort to get what I listed.
Not that I think National results are an end all guage of the success of a class, with fuel costs so high, well advertised and attended regional events may be equally as productive.


John H16, H14
Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: _flatlander_] #127698
01/07/08 07:19 PM
01/07/08 07:19 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
addict
HMurphey  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
Oh Mike,

You are asking me about one of those "stupid" things.

Once upon a time many years ago in the land of NJ, I brought two friends to the Wildwood Classic. They both had H-18mags and did mostly distance races on the Chesapeake and this was their first Hobie Points Regetta. So at the "Skipper's Meeting" we asked "would any of the other H-18s have an issue of us racing our (3) H-18 as magnums or did we need to remove our wings? No-one had any problems with our sailing as H-18mags in the H-18 class, so we thought. Upon racing this person came up to each of us AFTER a race and said "I protest you" and filed a protest. I will identify this person for you, "Gail Force", do any of you in Conn remember her??? Now since the race committee hadn't thought to post a notice on the "board" the protest was upheld and the three of us were DSQ'd. Now do you think my friends EVER attended another Hobie Points Regetta??? we packed up our boats and left!!! and they have never been back.

So we are at the H-18NAs and there is someone walking around inspecting the boats and saying " I can protest that(boat) ... oh, I can protest this(boat).... Now all the things they are picking out are very minor infractions that have NO effect on the boats performance or speed. In my case it was how I have my trap bungies rigged.

Note: there is a thread "Hobiecatcommunityforum H-18/H-18sx" with the question "How do you prevent cutting your Magnum Wing cover with the trap bungies" could someone paste this section over there because this is how you do it. I'm not registered for that forum ... yet)

So I have my trap system configured like this since the issue is the lack length (stretch) and resistance of the bungie. take (4)/side Harkem model 404 or 224 Blocks and tie them with 1/8 spectra to the Fore and Aft bungie tie off points under the gunwale along with attaching the other (2) by passing the spectra through the small through gunwale fittings (near the shroud) and tieing the two end together as short as possible. Take a piece of 3/16 Bungie and starting at the Fore Trap pass it through the block at the gunwale in front of the shroud, run it forward and around the block under the gunwale, then Aft to the Aft block and around it, returning through the block attached aft of shroud at the gunwale, attaching to the aft trap. OK?? this gives you enough stretch (20'/side of bungie) and reduces the resistance. It also removes the chaff point at the gunwale pass through. OK??? This makes it so the trap ststem will work with or without Wings, there is enough stretch that you do not need to rig the traps outside of the wings. Reach in, grab the trap ring, hook-up, go out!!!!

Now for the issue: the rule reads that the bungie "MUST" pass through the through gunwale fitting and no relocating/repositioning of the bungie is allowed. The intent is as I read it is you are not allowed to move the traps location by moving the through gunwale fitting. But technically my system passes the bungie through the block not the through gunwale fitting and it has moved by maybe 1" fore or aft depending on the trap. Note that the bungie will last for several seasons not just weeks.

So, lets invest a week off from work, a week of Hotel rooms ($$$), a entrance fee, gas/mileage on a truck (600miles)... And we are going to risk it in the "Protest Room" over a protest ....

I am 1/2 Scot/Irish, 1/2 German and ALL hard-headed. My ancesters were those guys who stripped naked, painted themselve "blue" grabbed a huge sword, and ran at you screaming to the heavens at the top of their lungs ...
Does the word conniption come to mind??? It is not pretty and you will know 3 states and 2 counties away that I am pissed off. And if I focus my energy on you ... you will not enjoy it. So I try to avoid situations envolving "sea lawyers" and what I consider CHICKENSH_T, OK???

Steve's situation was similiar in my opinion, but I will leave it to him to explain if he wishes.

Personally if I was on Race committee, I would have protested Gail on Poor Sportmanship, handed her entry fee back and sent her home. And I was not pleased with this individuals mindset at the H-18NAs.

I've been known to lend my competitors parts and fix their boats, holding up a race until they are ready. It is to me, more important to win on the water, NOT in the protest room, OK???

Harry Murphey

Re: Class Strength ?? [Re: HMurphey] #127699
01/07/08 07:25 PM
01/07/08 07:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 115
H
HobieZealot Offline
member
HobieZealot  Offline
member
H

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 115
There's not a class in the world that allows you to break a rule if it's only a "minor infraction". Welcome to sailboat racing. Hell welcome to sports.

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