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Questions from a possible F-16 buyer #132754
02/21/08 10:50 PM
02/21/08 10:50 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3
Toronto, Ontario
C
canuck001 Offline OP
stranger
canuck001  Offline OP
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 3
Toronto, Ontario
I have been sailing all my life, though mostly recreationally - very little racing. I grew up sailing sunfish and lasers. I raced Albacores and also sailed a Flying Junior as a teenager. In my twenties I windsurfed alot. And when then kids came along, we bought a laser which has given us years of enjoyment. Along the way I had a chance to briefly sail a few catamarans - a Super 17, and older Dart, and a strange little thing called an Aquacat. But in total, my catamaran sailing experience might total 3 hours. I am a bit of a speed freak, and the Laser has never quite satisfied my appetite for speed the way that my windsurfer did.

Apart from speed, the real draw of the F-16 for me is its light weight, its flexibility (1-up or 2-up), and its moderate cost (compared to an A-class). My ususal sailing partner would likely be my wife or one of my kids, so total weight would be 260-340 lbs.

My questions are as follows:

1) Would my background make me a reasonable candidate for an F-16 sailor, or is this too much boat for me.

2) My patience for a boat that requires endless setup time is limited. If you have a place to keep the boat close to the water with the mast up, how long would it take to rig an F-16 (mostly likely looking at the Blade), with or without the Spn. What if you were starting from scratch, rigging the boat from a trailer.

3) Some places I sail have shoals. How durable is are the hulls on the F-16, what would likely happen if you ran aground at a reasonable speed.

4) Which options - Pentex sails, Kevlar hulls, carbon mast, etc. are most worthwhile.

5) Safety and Pitchpoling. In my one experience on a Super 17, a near pitchpole sent me (out on the trapeze) flying forward. I ended up underneath the tramp (still on the wire) after whacking my head on the forward beam. Strikes me as it could have been a bad situation. This was in the late 1980s. Have trapezes evolved since that time to stop this kind of thing from happening?

6) Are there any F-16s in Canada or in Toronto. I realize the class is still new and I dont mind being the first, but company would be nice.

7) Finally, it is a short season up here and Lake Ontario never really warms up. Compared to a laser, or other beach cats, how wet a ride is the F-16.

Thanks for your help. Hope to be an owner within 6 months.

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Re: Questions from a possible F-16 buyer [Re: canuck001] #132755
02/21/08 11:41 PM
02/21/08 11:41 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 539
taipanfc Offline
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taipanfc  Offline
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Posts: 539
#1 - no problem really.

#2 - from trailer to sailing will take 30 to 40 mins. Some may say less, and this is possible. But you will find that there are a few adjustments to be made, conversations to be had etc so this time frame is more reasonable to expect.

#3 - not a good idea. The high aspect boards, ie long narrow centreboards on some of the F16s, don't like this and would be likely to break if hit at speed.

#4 - kevlar hulls if you have a problem with shoals. Aluminium mast also as that is more durable and less likely to break compared to carbon (and a lot cheaper)

#5 - still happens as user error still exists. That is part and parcel of sailing high-performance trapeze boats (ie both monos and cats).

#6 - others on the forum should be able to fill you in, got no idea.

#7 - at times it can be like standing in front of a fire hose. Maybe bit extreme an example, but expect to get wet.

I am sure you will get more responses as well.

Re: Questions from a possible F-16 buyer [Re: canuck001] #132756
02/22/08 02:41 AM
02/22/08 02:41 AM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Quote
I have been sailing all my life, though mostly recreationally - very little racing. I grew up sailing sunfish and lasers. I raced Albacores and also sailed a Flying Junior as a teenager. In my twenties I windsurfed alot. And when then kids came along, we bought a laser which has given us years of enjoyment. Along the way I had a chance to briefly sail a few catamarans - a Super 17, and older Dart, and a strange little thing called an Aquacat. But in total, my catamaran sailing experience might total 3 hours. I am a bit of a speed freak, and the Laser has never quite satisfied my appetite for speed the way that my windsurfer did.

Apart from speed, the real draw of the F-16 for me is its light weight, its flexibility (1-up or 2-up), and its moderate cost (compared to an A-class). My ususal sailing partner would likely be my wife or one of my kids, so total weight would be 260-340 lbs.

My questions are as follows:

1) Would my background make me a reasonable candidate for an F-16 sailor, or is this too much boat for me.


"I also spent lots of time sailboarding, I find sailing under spinnaker a similar experience, so I think you will like it, a big challenge like learning sailboarding. I sold my previous F16 "Altered" to a guy with similar experience, he is enjoying it and doesn't mind crashing and burning to learn."


2) My patience for a boat that requires endless setup time is limited. If you have a place to keep the boat close to the water with the mast up, how long would it take to rig an F-16 (mostly likely looking at the Blade), with or without the Spn. What if you were starting from scratch, rigging the boat from a trailer.


"Hard stand 10mins. From trailer 60 mins with yack time."


3) Some places I sail have shoals. How durable is are the hulls on the F-16, what would likely happen if you ran aground at a reasonable speed.


"Don't run aground! Damage to centreboards and centreboard cases is likely if you do."


4) Which options - Pentex sails, Kevlar hulls, carbon mast, etc. are most worthwhile.


"If sailing one up I would go with all options mentioned. make sure mast is above minimum weight and it is strong enough."


5) Safety and Pitchpoling. In my one experience on a Super 17, a near pitchpole sent me (out on the trapeze) flying forward. I ended up underneath the tramp (still on the wire) after whacking my head on the forward beam. Strikes me as it could have been a bad situation. This was in the late 1980s. Have trapezes evolved since that time to stop this kind of thing from happening?


"There are quick release trapeze harnesses available, but in my 40 years of sailing I have only seen one person caught in the situation you describe. After a while you become expert at crashing?"


6) Are there any F-16s in Canada or in Toronto. I realize the class is still new and I dont mind being the first, but company would be nice.


"Don't know, but if you have any other cats with spinnaker or A's around you have company at the front of the fleet."


7) Finally, it is a short season up here and Lake Ontario never really warms up. Compared to a laser, or other beach cats, how wet a ride is the F-16.


"I have found the F16 Blade dryer than other cats I have sailed."


Thanks for your help. Hope to be an owner within 6 months.

Re: Questions from a possible F-16 buyer [Re: ] #132757
02/22/08 06:07 AM
02/22/08 06:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Quote

"If sailing one up I would go with all options mentioned. make sure mast is above minimum weight and it is strong enough."



The alu mast die is widening a little due to frequent use and the newer batches of masts are slightly heavier, stronger and stiffer as a result. Basically, you won't have to worry about this aspect at all. The lighest masts held up great and it is impossible to expect the slightly heavier masts to be less durable.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Questions from a possible F-16 buyer [Re: canuck001] #132758
02/22/08 07:29 AM
02/22/08 07:29 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
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F

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
The kevlar is definitely worthwhile. I've handled my boat clumsily, dropping it off the trailer for instance, without serious damage. The internal downhaul is a clean and efficient add on.

Re: Questions from a possible F-16 buyer [Re: ] #132759
02/22/08 12:57 PM
02/22/08 12:57 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
old hand
Mark P  Offline
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Just one point about Alloy masts and I don't want to steal this thread but Alu hasn't changed for basically the last forty years but Carbon has come on leaps and bounds in the last twenty so to say the Alu is more robust isn't quite true!! and as for costs if by any chance my Carbon mast did fail it would be a hell of a lot CHEAPER for me living in the UK to purchase a JP Carbon mast than to import an Alloy Superwing from Australia. There we go I've said my bit about Masts as for the rest of a F16 I can guarantee you would not have any second thoughts after sailing one.


MP*MULTIHULLS
Re: Questions from a possible F-16 buyer [Re: fin.] #132760
02/22/08 12:59 PM
02/22/08 12:59 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 549
Knokke-Heist - Belgium
Gilo Offline
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Gilo  Offline
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Posts: 549
Knokke-Heist - Belgium
I've been sailing a Nacra 5.0 for quite a while before changing to a Blade last year.
The F16 is a lot faster, but as easy or even easier to control. I don't think you get a lot wetter on the Blade then an other cat.
My dad is 60 and has been sailing for 10 years on the 5.0 (mostly with me as skipper) and he didn't have any difficulties changing to the Blade also.

Just be careful hitting something (with every kind of cat).

Regards,
Gill


Falcon F16 - BEL666
Boats: TheBoatShop.be
Stories: bladef16.blogspot.com
Re: Questions from a possible F-16 buyer [Re: Gilo] #132761
02/22/08 02:02 PM
02/22/08 02:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 915
Dublin, Ireland
Dermot Offline
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Dermot  Offline
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Posts: 915
Dublin, Ireland
Quote
My dad is 60 and has been sailing for 10 years on the 5.0 (mostly with me as skipper) and he didn't have any difficulties changing to the Blade also.
Regards,
Gill

60 - and he's still sailing cats <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


Dermot
Catapult 265
Re: Questions from a possible F-16 buyer [Re: Dermot] #132762
02/22/08 02:13 PM
02/22/08 02:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Mary  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Quote
60 - and he's still sailing cats <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


Hmmm, I know people in their late 60's and early 70's who are still sailing cats. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Re: Questions from a possible F-16 buyer [Re: Mary] #132763
02/22/08 02:20 PM
02/22/08 02:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 915
Dublin, Ireland
Dermot Offline
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Dermot  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 915
Dublin, Ireland
Quote
Quote
60 - and he's still sailing cats <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />


Hmmm, I know people in their late 60's and early 70's who are still sailing cats. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That was quick Mary <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Seeing that I'm in that group now, I'm trying to get others over 60 to comment <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Dermot
Catapult 265
Re: Questions from a possible F-16 buyer [Re: Dermot] #132764
02/22/08 02:28 PM
02/22/08 02:28 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Wow Dermot, I would never have guessed! Keep at it!

Re: Questions from a possible F-16 buyer [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #132765
02/22/08 04:32 PM
02/22/08 04:32 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 126
southern Ontario
Twister Offline
member
Twister  Offline
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Posts: 126
southern Ontario
Here in Toronto there is one former F18 sailor who races a Blade. Nice boat. Races us F18's and Acat.

Last edited by Twister; 02/22/08 04:35 PM.
Re: Questions from a possible F-16 buyer [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #132766
02/22/08 05:35 PM
02/22/08 05:35 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 915
Dublin, Ireland
Dermot Offline
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Dermot  Offline
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Quote
Wow Dermot, I would never have guessed! Keep at it!
I really don't want to talk about myself, but maybe this is relevant to this thread and will encourage new sailors to cat sailing.
In my opinion <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />, I have always raced the most suitable cat for my ability (and age). I started sailing at 33 in a single-handed Catapult. I raced it in a mainly Condor fleet and, when my eldest son, Neil, was 12, he became my full time crew on a Dart 18. When Neil moved on to his own Dart 18, my younger son Gary took over as my crew. When the Dart Hawk was introduced, we moved on to that, before I got too old <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. Then the lighter Spitfire appeared on the scene, and Neil bought one, and I followed a year later. Gary went off working as a sailing instructor and I found that the juniors in the Club (mainly girls in their early 20s) could not afford their own boats, but were very enthusiastic about sailing on cats. I have had 2 sisters racing with me for the past few years (one at a time) and we won the 2006 Irish Nationals as I entered my 60th year in 2006. This will probably be my last year on the Spitfire. At my age, I don’t want to be dependant on a crew, or have a crew dependant on me, so it looks like a Shadow beckons – It’s all about sailing the most suitable cat for your circumstances.
When I say Spitfire here, I really do not differentiate between it and a Formula 16.


Dermot
Catapult 265
Re: Questions from a possible F-16 buyer [Re: canuck001] #132767
02/22/08 05:39 PM
02/22/08 05:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
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Posts: 9,582
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Quote

6) Are there any F-16s in Canada or in Toronto. I realize the class is still new and I dont mind being the first, but company would be nice.


A few. The guy in Toronto as mentioned, and I know of Bruce Barrs in Edmonton Alberts (a bit far away) and a couple in up-state New York.

Check here for locations : http://www.frappr.com/formula16classgroup

This frappr map is not up to date anymore, but everybody that is on there still has a boat, basically the new additions haven't registered yet.

My advice would be to find a Blade owner and beg for a test ride. Then you know what to expect in stead of believe us on our world. But the old addagio still holds (it orginated with the Taipans).

"Don't test sail a F16 if your are not prepared to want one !"

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Questions from a possible F-16 buyer [Re: Twister] #132768
02/22/08 05:39 PM
02/22/08 05:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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How does he do in comparison. I mean relative to before and after the switch ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Questions from a possible F-16 buyer [Re: Dermot] #132769
02/22/08 07:28 PM
02/22/08 07:28 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
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Mark P  Offline
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Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Come on now Dermot, I know you have deep roots in the Swell ethos but a true F16 is what you're really craving!! Have a GREAT day and don't open too many bottles whilst watching the other sport <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> What are you doing between the 9th-12th Aug. I'm sure we'd all like you to join us at our Welsh World's in body if not on the water.


MP*MULTIHULLS
Re: Questions from a possible F-16 buyer [Re: Mark P] #132770
02/22/08 10:31 PM
02/22/08 10:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Timbo  Offline
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Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Dermot is lying, probably trying to get some "senior Citizen discount" or something. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I've seen him up close, I tell you he isn't a day over 50! And Dermot, could you please send me one of those "sisters" for the Gulfport regatta? Wouldn't it be great to have an authentic Irish Lasse on St. Patty's day over here! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by Timbo; 02/23/08 12:59 AM.

Blade F16
#777
Re: Questions from a possible F-16 buyer [Re: Timbo] #132771
02/22/08 11:10 PM
02/22/08 11:10 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 19
Toronto
f16rick Offline
stranger
f16rick  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 19
Toronto
Hey Canuck! As soon as the water warms, the Blade F16 #722 will be back out on Lake Ontario out of EYC. Track me down if you want to go for a blast! Apparently there is also a Taipan sailing out one of the outer harbour clubs, but I have yet to see it. It would be nice to get another F16 out to race with.


Blade 722
Re: Questions from a possible F-16 buyer [Re: Wouter] #132772
02/22/08 11:14 PM
02/22/08 11:14 PM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 19
Toronto
f16rick Offline
stranger
f16rick  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 19
Toronto
I think I'm doing better thanks!


Blade 722
Re: Questions from a possible F-16 buyer [Re: f16rick] #132773
02/23/08 02:58 AM
02/23/08 02:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe

Quote

I think I'm doing better thanks!


So I can mark you down as a happy customer ?! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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