This is interesting No one want to post actual data? On the other thread only one person was willing to post there actual boat weight. WHAT IS EVERYONE HIDING.I will post my boat weight in a couple of weeks when we all have our boats measured just waiting for national association to be sorted out.

We tried getting some weights in a structured way, but.. Alas. Nobody is hiding anything, but the topic is worn out.

Yeah, That thread went really well....

Wouter was the one person to post his boat weight taken from the GC.

I then attempted to post the average weights as posted by the class chairman and Rolf kept deleting my post!!

So how about someone from the class that has the information taken at the GC (the only international event to date) post the figures here?

No need to name owners, just list the boats with no sail numbers etc and the boat weight as per the records from the GC.

Then we will have some FACTS to discuss.

No, you are not going into boatweights and the F16 min weight. Gather weights, fine, but dont deviate.

How about we gather the data and let the discussion continue from there?

censoring a topic because its not in line with a particular moderators point of view is not in line with the job description.

If you have complaints with my actions, take it up with Mary, Rick or even the F16 GC.

Rolf,

I have sent Mary a PM protesting your actions and I am awaiting her response.

In the interim can we use the time for a good purpose and get someone to post the actual weights as taken at the GC?

Sure, no problem.

I fail to see any relevance between the minimum weight of the F16 formula “box rule” and the respective individual weights of the boats actually out there sailing that fall within that box rule.
IF, the F16 “class” of catamarans were a ONE DESIGN class, then yes the minimum weight would have a much greater significance, as most, if not all those cats would probably be “manufactured” by one “professional” builder and that minimum weight would/should be the consistent weight of each and every boat produced by that manufacturer.
BUT THE F16 IS NOT A ONE DESIGN CLASS. Its dimensions are bound by its box rule formula, whereby each cat eligible to compete within that class has only to fall within the maximum and the minimum dimensions of that box rule. The cats eligible to compete within this “class” can be built by ANYONE, and as such they will obviously vary in many different ways from one to another, and as long as they all still fall within the “box rule” (no matter who builds them or what their relative shapes) there should be no problem (or argument) As far as the minimum weight is concerned, it is one of the dimensions that is an objective to be achieved and if some boats at present do not get down to that weight then what does it really matter – some do weigh the minimum! – And more will as the class matures. It is not really a question of “why are some boats overweight” but more of not having the problem of boats regularly being sailed under weight and trying to compete below that weight without penalty. The minimum weight is a goal that is, at this time, not universally achieved, but like many classes before where many cats within those classes did not come in at their minimum allowable weight, over time they all did.
The Mosquito in Australia, which is a one design class of cat that is an “association defined” class (similar in many ways to the formula concept), for many years were all built “overweight” but for some years now they have all managed to be built at or below minimum weight and need to carry “correctors” to ensure that they fall within their allowable weight. During the 1970’s there was this same argument within the mosquito association that the minimum weights should be raised to “make it fairer for all the – heavy – boats, to compete”. They are all glad now that decision wasn’t taken.

So are you saying that there is no disadvanage in competing with a F16 that is heavier than the min weight?

Darryl,

What difference does it make that F16 is a box rule or One Design with regards to weight. Having a Blade thats 5kg overweight is the same as having a Stealth thats 5kg overweight!

Weight is only one of the parameters that builders/designers are able to optimize against.

Another book you may find useful - http://press.princeton.edu/TOCs/c8219.html

Jeez Macca, you are really being pedantic aren't you?
I fail to see the relevance of your questions pertaining to ANY "box rule" class. - You bring your boat and you race for, first across the line wins - That’s a formula. If you want to worry about the individual weights of individual boats you go and sail in a one design class (All their boats weigh the same – yeah right) or race on yardstick. Make your choice. If weight variation means so much to you why race at all, just weight the boats beforehand then award first place to the lightest boat without the necessity of getting your feet wet.
From your questions I can’t help but wonder why you don’t question the relative sail areas? What if one type of F16 cats all sail with their sails 1sqm less than the allowable maximum sail area? Would you be asking the same type of questions about the class for those reasons? IE “show me all the actual measurements taken of the sails as I don’t think it is fair that “those” cats were allowed to sail with a different sized sail plan”.
If as you intimate the actual weight of the cats relative to each other and to the minimum weight is SO critical to you then perhaps we should look at defining the “ideal” weight of the crew that sail on the boat and saying that – all crews SHALL only weigh between 75Kgs and 78Kgs, any crew who comes in over that weight shall be penalised by a sliding scale rating system and any crew under that weight shall have to carry “correctors” about their body. Your argument seems to be just that – an argument for the sake of argument – and pardon me for saying (please don’t take any of this personal) your arguments are beginning to appear a little irrelevant.

Andrew,

You question regarding data from Zandvoort can be answered. This info is fact, not fiction or opinion.

Average weight of the cat rigged boats was 109kgs
Average weight of the sloop rigged boats was 112kgs

I have included the 2007 VMW boats, the 2007 FCA boat, the 2007 Ned boats & the 2007 Stealths - all boats that are relevant to the discussion.

From a munufacturers point of view, our boat weighed 110.7kgs at the event & we have found 4kgs in savings since the event & looking for the last couple of kgs without compromising integrity or using exotics.

Therefore I guess the question has been answered.?

Strange Darryl, but I had always considerd that you were intelligent enough to understand the fundamental mechanics of sail boat racing..

You say it's not important to have boats at min weight in a "box rule" class, Well then why is it so important for the F18 class to measure each boat and add corretors to bring boats to a min weight? F18 is as much a box rule as F16 is and the min weight rule is enforced with great strictness. Are you saying that these efforts are misguided?

Answer this for me:-

There are two identical Blade F16's rigged on the beach and its the first day of the GC, one boat is on min weight, the other is 7kg overweight.

Which one would you choose to race the event on?

As for crew weight:-

I am sure that as/if F16 matures an optimum crew weight range will emerge, however you need to be careful not to put boat weight and crew weight in the one equation. moveable ballast is markedly different to boat weight.

Macca, after sailing the Taipan F16 and the Viper, I know I would be faster on the Viper than the Taipan F16 in all conditions despite the Viper being 18kgs over minimum weight. I don't think weight alone is the one and end all of good boat design.

Thanks Marcus,

But what is the sample size and the Standard Deviation (for Wouter)

ie is there a list of boats weighed?

From the data supplied it appears that the current fleet is on average 5kg over the min class weight for both Cat and Sloop boats.

So what happens to those early adapters to the class (those that put their money down on a boat when the class was just being talked about) when the new boats come out that are 5kg lighter? Tough luck for them hey?

I assume you have left the Viper out of the figures because it hurts the average?

What happens to the figures when you exclude the heaviest boat (Viper) and the lightest boat (Hans' Blade)

NM post deleted by me <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Andrew I was simply indicating what the current weight average of the latest boats produced & yes excluded the viper as it fits the F16 box rule, but even Greg Goodall looked dissapointed when the scales clocked 137kgs at Zandvoort. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

5kgs is not a huge amount of weight to be concerned about given that some of the interesting performers at Zandvoort were sailing boats that did not even fall into the averages that were presented.

ie// Belgium crew got a bullet in a race where you would have bet on a lighter platform.

The sloop rigged stealth (father & son team) finished 3rd in two of the races, certainly showing the way to the majority of lighter boats.

Excluding Han's boat is not really applicable as his boat was 2kgs overweight.

Tough luck for some - I think the same could be said for the F18 sailors who purchased early hobie, nacra & capricorn F18s until the newer revised designs came out ( not so much for hobie). Sometimes people take a chance knowing that there is allways the latest & greatest gizmo around the corner.

I bet Bill Gates sleeps well at night. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Here we go again... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The Viper has gained advantages over the other F16's because if the larger volume hulls and stiffer platform but it cost them in weight i.e. it's a trade-off. Get it? This is how formula racing works. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />