Ehh Thomm,

I know the common perception of outsiders is that all F16's sailros are just imaginairy wannabees but there are actually a couple of us who have been trapping under spinnaker for a number of years now. Simon and Gary being to obvious examples. Simon even doing it on his Nacra 17 before he switch over to F16's. Now I'm not one of them but I'm also not discarding what seems to work well for them. Gary has beaten Greg Goodall over the line on quite a few seperate occasions ! That is a hell lot more then you and I and the majority of US Nacra 17 sailors are able to do when either sitting in or trapping out. If guys like Gary say that it works for them then I believe them.

We can also turn this around you know; maybe you Nacra 17 guys need to sail properly !

Here is Gary leading two F18's for I believe a line honours or 2nd place over the line :




Here from another angle ;




This guy is not "analysing" it but actually doing it with impressive results.

Wouter

Try not to take things so personnally Wouter, I'm simply giving my opinion from the experience that I have gained while sailing. I'm not talking world class sailors, I'm talking mainly to your boys at Midwinters and folks like that. Just trying to save them a little time in taking the next step.

I mean some of the best sailors I know of were like 40th in the A-cat Worlds so I don't claim to wanna argue with the guy in 10th or even the one in 30th position. I'm talking weekend warrior here. For better advice, don't piss off the experts like you have sometimes done in the past!!

I mean your boys are stuffing their bows two up for goodness sake, and you are wanting them to trap out singlehand?! Like I have said before, you have to learn before you can learn.

Tom
Keyboard Sailor Extrordinaire

And what exactly do you think we are doing ?

Wouter

Tom,

analyzis is neccesary to learn, isn't it? That is part of the reason why we are on this forum?
What you are saying is the same as I have been trying to say, but everybody have to go out on the water and spend time to get the feel and timing for it.

Stuffing the bows is slow anyway. But if the ride is just too wild for your skill, you have to adapt to it. From the pitchpoles we have done under spi it is worse to sit in and hit boards, mast, wires etc. compared to hitting just the water. I have the scars to prove it <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> If the difference is going swimming or saving it, sitting in is the best way of course. If you can drive the boat from the trapeeze and it is faster. Well..
Limitations and skills are individual so what is fast for you might not be fast for me, and the other way around. "Properly" is a definition which will change from event to event, day to day and over time.
Why dont you describe in detail what you mean by "properly" downwind driving technique for everybody to study? Both we F16 diehards and the I17 sailors would benefit from that.

Rolf,

Yes! (concerning analysis) I was kinda talking to Wouter with his super long engineering type rants. Hey Wouter, maybe you should move to Pensacola, Ft Walton Beach (or even Crestview!!) so you can spend more time on the water with your buddies over here and less time at the keyboard. I have an excuse. No boat at the moment. By the way, does anyone know where I might buy a used catamaran trailer that would hold a boat say 17' 9" long?

Tom

Thomm,

Why don't you just learn to bloody read what is written, not what you think is written !




I never said that, nor did any of the others.

Alot of us ARE saying that any 2-up crew should really trap downwind.

With respect to 1-up sailing there appear to be two modes that work for different personalities/setups. The choice to go with which is up to the individual sailor.

In fact you are the one claiming everybody should go for one mode (sitting in) because some guys in Michigan sailing another type of boat are doing that.

You're the one explicitely suggesting people to start sailing properly.

And please remind me again why you spending so much time on the F16 forum ?

Wouter

I usually speed read (ala Evelyn Woods)your long rants W, so I may have missed something............which by the way I know that you are guilty of also(not reading well)

Tom

I believe Rolf asked about what the I17 guys did. That's how I got involved, and it went from there with PTP's informative posts! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Tom, you guys managed to write two posts while I only managed one, so my message came out of sync with yours. I am buzzing off now as the discussion on downwind technique seem to be over and heading "somewhere else" <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If you feel up to it, I and others here are always interested in studying experiences and opinions on technique. Hint hint..

Well then just tell us how you did it and what works for you; but leave the "Once you guys start driving those F16's one up properly, I'm thinking you ..." parts out.

Then we are all happy and we'll all value your input.

Wouter

I have been spending way too much time on here!

Thom, ya gotta sail one of these boats to understand what I am talking about downwind. Same thing for what others are saying. There are similarities obviously between the 16 and 17, just like there are similarities between an 18 and 20, but you can't say they behave exaclty the same downwind in terms of the way the bows behave with chop/wind/puffs. That, I guess, would be my point about how I try to drive downwind on the wire. I appreciate your input (seriously) but there are differences that are real. Also, you are sounding a little condescending about it too. I, for one, am always looking for input- especially from someone with more experience who has really seen me sail though. Fine line I guess

What works on a Nacra 17 doesn't always work on a boat that is lighter, nearly 2' shorter and has very fine bows, compared to the huge bows of the 17. The same things happened when the Bimare Jav2 came to the USA and a bunch of Inter 20 sailors got on it and tried to drive it like an Inter 20, they ended up calling it, "The Yellow Submarine" because when you put people on the wire going downwind, and a puff comes along, and you bear off hard, you will drive it under up to the mast, easily, -very easily- compared to the Inter 20.

The Blade is not the same as an F17 and the same techinques do not work on both boats. The Blade behaves more like the Jav 2 (ask Andi Lutz, he has sailed both) and the Nacra 17 is more like the I 20. So figure out your own boat, that's what's going to make you faster. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

me too, and they are fairly similar in terms of the need to stay back on the boat. Like I said, maybe the blade would behave like the 17r if it weighed 120 pounds more and had an extra couple of feet.

Well, I certainly don't mean to sound condescending about it. I personally managed to pitchpole a NACRA 6.0 downwind without spinnaker during Midwinters '98! I also tried to take out the Bob Sykes Bridge with the same boat. I know the 6.0's are tough but that was asking a bit much.....

Maybe I should have said " when you get more experience " rather than " learn to sail properly." That may have gone down a little better. The thing I was trying to get across though without sounding one way or another is that the smoother you are on the tiller the better. The more knowledge you have sailing in the particular conditions the better. That's why some of these guys with tons of time on the water don't get too involved in these conversations. They have already been through all this stuff when they went from say Hobie 16's to NACRA 6.0's with spinnaker(or whatever the order was back in the day). I think I saw a NACRA 5.5 with jib and spin also during RTI 1995. I was watching as they finished that race from a bar in Ft. Walton beach as they passed around 5:30 - 6:00 pm. It was awesome. Close by the spin group was a Hobie 20 sloop, no spin. Talk about experience.

Tom

Understood Dermot, but after a previous discussion I had resolved that I needed to overcome the desire to ease the mainsheet while running scared and chicken (deep). Your apparent wind is rotating aft and you are presenting that twisted off roach squarely to the wind (especially after a wave stuff). I was hoping to find out that keeping the main stalled was more effective at reducing the pitching moment.
So travel out yes, ease no.

Just another Northern Sailor.

Thom/Tom (which do you prefer?).

As one of those guys in the pictures, I appreciate the input and you are spot on with tiller time being the most important ingredient. After every herky-jerkey dive down, I was thinking that "man, I should been more prepared for that.....". I did survive the weekend with no capsizes (2 races and a short sail Sunday AM, big whooop).

As far as trapezing under spi... it will benefit some designs more than others, it depends on the skipper's comfort-factor, it depends on the sea state, etc.... I personally have not done it much in racing because I haven't practiced it much. I wouldn't dare sail an upwind leg without the trapeze, so it makes sense to me to use it downwind (especially on this design) when the conditions merit it. Just gotta practice.

BTW - I am going to the lake today with the kids.

We did have one F17 guy that used to trap downwind with success at Slip to Ship but that would be for a long leg say 9 miles on the same tack(he also had his foot strap in about the same place as the guy in Wouter's post that's trapped out). I would just worry about jibing from the trapeze in short distance buoy races. It's hard to visualize since I haven't been on the boat for a while. I just don't see how you could have that really quick jibe like you can when sailing onboard. Plus, you have more control onboard when in traffic since you have access to the mainsail if you need it.

But, who knows, maybe you'll come up with your own technique.......

Enjoy the lake! We have rain today but possibly 80 degrees tomorrow.



Tom

I'm only replying about a detail here.

I have never understood were the rumour came from that F16's are nearly 2' shorter then the Nacra 17. This is patently untrue.

The real difference as measured by Texel officials = Nacra 17 - F16 = 5.240 - 5.000 mtr = 0.240 mtr = just less then 10 inches (= 0.254 mtr) = just over 2 inches less then a SINGLE foot. Even when taking the shorter Taipan 4.9 then the Nacra 17 is still less then a single foot longer.

The length difference between both hulls is about the same distance as between your stretched middle finger and the rear part of your wrist nuckle. That is all ! (this measure is also handy for some potent non-verbal communication ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

"nearly 2 feet" is actually more then double that difference.

The real difference between both hulls is in the overall shape, especially bow shape as the difference in length is pretty negligiable.

Wouter

Okay, let forgive and forget about it.

And on with the discussion ! Ohh yeah ! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Wouter

Thomm,

You are right on those points.

But we all knew that already. Like everything in sailing it is a trade-off.

Less agility in a gybe but more vmg; in different situations you'll favour different choices.

On my own boat however I always prefer to sit or hike out from the rearbeam and not trapeze. I've done trapezing a few times but you really need a foot strap for that to work and I don't have one. Also my spi is old and full and requires alot of sheet tension that pulls me forward too much to be comfortable on the trapeze.

Wouter