This topic popped up in another discussion, and it would be interesting to see what others think about it on a general basis. No agendas, and lets not get personal.

When are you a professional and what do other amateurs feel about competing with professionals on the racecourse? Fair or not? Good for the sport or not?

I think everyone should want to compete against the best in their sport whatever it is. The good thing about sailing is that even when you are old/older you can still compete with the best if you have the knowledge. Plus, racing against the best let's you know how you are progressing.

And believe me, I know all about how hard it can be since I moved to Pensacola with 3 years sailing experience on Hobie 16's and about 6 races total under my belt.

IMHO it can only be good, because the amateurs can learn while sailing alongside (behind) the pro's. But the pro's maybe worried about amateurs bumping into their hulls and messing up their game. Fair ? Why not ? Best way to improve yourself at anything is to always expect more and get in the game with people with superior skills. Fair for the pro's ? I assume it must always be nice to see the amateurs behind, remembering you that at one point you were one of them. I think that there is much more to it than the shiny cup at the end of the day, getting together is the most important thing.

Sailor classification is defined by ISAF, .pdf]sailor classification

Basically, if you make money from the sport you're a professional. Not all professionals win regattas since you may be employed in the industry but not necessarily the best racer.

In general, I think it is a good idea to mix the two. There are not many sports left where a recreational participant can mingle with the elite. The recreational participant gets to see rigging options, hear advice and learn from up-front close contact with the best in their sport. Maybe, just maybe - they can even have rights on a port-starboard situation or get a puff at the right time and sail over one of the best in their sport (hey…. it happens). It is an added bonus when the professional is open and engaging – in essence helping those who support his/her livelihood (or part of his/her livelihood).

Do I think they have a great advantage? Yes, but it is because they worked for it. You cannot begrudge their dedication and efforts at making a living at something we do for fun.

I'm for it (Pro's or Olympians sailing in regatta's).

There are not many sports that you can say that you participated with the best in the world.

*Distance Running (10k, 15k, 1/2 Marathon, Marathon)
*Sailing

Are the only two that I'm aware of (although someone mentioned golf -- but only if you win the Amateur title).

So, as tshan mentioned, I'd like to:

- look at how they rig their boat,
- watch what tactics they use while sailing
- try and keep up
- listen to the stories so that I can
- learn a little more

If they let me send in $350 to play golf at The Masters with Tiger and Phil next month I'd be all over it.
We have that same opportunity in sailing every year.

Just like in golf, you can have a good hole or a good race and beat a pro. Those are the things that keep people coming back.

The equalling interesting issue is about Catagory C.... Advertising on the sails.

Is the NASCAR look good for our niche of the sport?

The majority of our sailing is owner funded.. Yacht Clubs don't mix the two.

I hear some grumbling about the NASCAR look but nothing seems to have come of it.

What's the deal in other areas of the country...

Advertising on boats... OK... Tolerated... or Frowned on?

Before anyone else mentions it, I had a NASCAR boat. Not because I was a pro, but because I needed to find a creative way to buy a new boat that I otherwise couldn't afford. I was new to Hobie Cats, and everyone welcomed me with open arms.

It's now 11 years later, I'm on my third brand new boat, and I've spent an inordinate amount of time giving back to the sport over the years. I'm biased, but I'd like to think that my having sponsors all those years ago was a positive.

As for others, I've seen plenty of cats with sponsors, notably the distance racers. I actually think it adds an element of prestige to the general public (hey, those guys must be GOOD!)... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

There are also a handful of boats with one or two small sponsors, which have always been welcomed, and I've never heard any complaints about it at Hobie regattas.

In my opinion, we're not really in a position to turn away boats just because they have stickers on them. Yacht clubs may choose to go that route, more power to them, but I don't think it does us any favors.

Mike

I think absolutely YES. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ok Mary

Those benefits would be what exactly?

We are talking about several different things here as I see it.

1) Builders sponsoring factory teams ... or perhaps representing the boat themsleves at a regatta.

Part of the deal is that these individuals are supposed to be helpful and share knowledge, boat tunning, etc etc. They want to sell the boat to me and others so their attitude is usally "Helpful" This of course is far more succesful then taking the "win at all cost" attitude.

I think most of us view these individuals as great assets and we want them to come race with us.

However, other aspects are not positive in my opinion.

2) Another option is for an owner to pay for, or subsidize a rock star pro sailor to help the owner win a regatta. This is common in big boats and I have witnessed blow back when this happens in small cats.

The resentment is directed specifically at the individual and it's not subtle. IMO... Not good for the sport.

3) The final example is a sailor or team that goes out and gets corporate sponsorship and raises the competition level to now include fundraising!

This is a minor variation on Richie Rich going out and purchasing top flight equipment that may give him an edge on the race course. However, this usally corrects itself in a year. Usually Richie Rich finds that he wants to play with other people with $$$ and moves up to the $$$$ class.

Basically, you feel the playing field is not level and competing in the game while handicapped makes the game not worth playing.

Again, people are resentful that the game is being screwed by XXX BUT... they really can't say anything. It's not against the rules and more then one "sponsored boat" is on the course. Moreover, if they bring up the subject... they are told.
"Hey... money is always an issue in racing... deal with it."

I don't think we would actually know if sponsorship has a down side in this example. The sailor probably just drops out and goes to another competitive sport or changes classes to one where the class principals are more in alignement with his.


I figure that since yacht clubs have been running for 80 or 90 years and these issues are as old as two boats deciding to have a race.... they just might know something about how to manage the sport.

Usually, Richie Rich opts to play against other owners with equal resources and so this self corrects pretty quickly. The sailors with more ordinary means compete in their classes. Nobody is able to bring their personal buisness/ write off or their fundraising prowess into the game.

Bottom line... Sponsored Factory Teams... Good for the sport. Everything else... best handled by Corninthian rules and peer pressure. Hired pro's on your boat and Catagory C advertising... No good!

Your milage may vary!

Sorry, but I don't understand what all that has to do with putting advertising on your sails and having the "NASCAR look." I think you should be able to put as much advertising on your sails as you want to. And if you can get somebody to pay you for it, so much the better! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Certainly does not have anything to do with whether you are a good sailor or a bad sailor.
Well, maybe whether you are a good salesman or a bad salesman. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So why do MOST classes NOT allow advertising?

You know... plain (white usally) sails.

Nobody is arguing about who is fast or slow on the water...

This is a debate over the rules we play by!
We have equipment rules.
we have competitor rules.
we have the racing rules on the water.

You need all three for the sport...

You just keep saying


Why is that for the better?

Pro's are evil <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm a moderately crappy sailor. Is there anyone out there who would like to buy me a new boat that I can race? I'll put stickers all over it if necessary. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I've heard it said that when you sail with the same people all of the time your fleet will detune and become slower. Most of the time when pros show up it makes everyone step up to the plate and sail better.

I'm not sure if I understand you exactly, but I will add that that is why one-design beachcat racing is is so cool. For example, pretty much, if you spend $10,000 on a brand new Hobie 16, that's it, you're done, no need to drop anymore dough. (I've seen guys win races on $1000 H16's) There is noting else to spend your money on to make the boat go faster other than sailing. I saw a guy last summer win a race against some of the best 16 sailors in the world on a beat up, scavenged together (2003?) H16.

Other classes are different, but for the most part in the sailing world beachcat racing is cheap. The sponsor thing is less of a factor, because being rich is less of a factor.

Who sponsors beachcat teams here in the US other than small businesses anyway? The dollar amount is nominal if any.

Mark,
The invitation still stands for you to come over and peel the stickers off all of my Worrell sails if it bothers you so much.We've been through this before.
They do get attention at regattas ,mostly from people who are interested in getting into cat sailing. When they start asking questions I try to get 'em in to it.If you think this hurts sailing, then that seems to fit your ongoing agenda of alienating the cat racers we have. Keep over-thinking this kinda stuff and you'll end up sailing by yourself.
Look forward to seein' you at Spring Fever, so I can give you a boot in the butt. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

p.s. "So why do MOST classes NOT allow advertising?"
For the same reason most yacht clubs don't allow multihulls. 'Cause they're living in the past(w/ their head up their posterior) and relish the archaic English based racing rules.

I think it was Colby who pointed that out to the California boys when he came down to put on a race clinic

hijack- What classes don't allow advertising. I was kinda planning on pasting my business name down the side of my boat and try to write it off.