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Re: Pro or not.. [Re: mmadge] #135669
03/10/08 09:07 PM
03/10/08 09:07 PM
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Posts: 1,187
38.912, -95.37
_flatlander_ Offline
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Isn't it interesting to note that no EU or Aussie sailors have much to say on this subject? They're probably chuckling at us.

This thread was started because a master uni-rig sailor was testing a boat at a regatta??? Congratulations to him, Where else than on a race course can you get better testing? I, unfortunately, missed a H14 clinic put on by him when he told everyone exactly what he does and why (no secrets) and then proceeded to kick everyone's a$$ in the subsequent races. Tells me there's only so much you can do with boat speed and it gives little old me hope, I only wish there were more "pros" to go around in the USA.


John H16, H14
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Pro or not.. [Re: _flatlander_] #135670
03/10/08 09:13 PM
03/10/08 09:13 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 461
Victoria, Oztralia
mattaipan Offline
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Victoria, Oztralia
Hi There

I'm not sure what Aussies would say to be honest, I've just sailed in the Taipan State Titles, which is a category C event. The most signage on a boat I saw was, GOODALL YACHT SAILS in big letters on a big head Taipan main, which was on the mast of Garys FCA Blade, other than that just a couple of AHPC website stickers.

Regards


Matt Harper Homebuilt Taipan 4.9 AUS 329 'GOT WOOD' SEEDY PIRATES RACING TEAM
Re: Pro or not.. [Re: macca] #135671
03/11/08 12:29 AM
03/11/08 12:29 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 539
taipanfc Offline
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Pro's are evil <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


Especially when they have rainbow coloured sails!

Re: Pro or not.. [Re: taipanfc] #135672
03/11/08 12:39 AM
03/11/08 12:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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Australia
just got a new set, they are sky blue, still evil though...


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Re: Pro or not.. [Re: Mark Schneider] #135673
03/11/08 04:10 AM
03/11/08 04:10 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Mary  Offline
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So why do MOST classes NOT allow advertising?

I have no idea. They are my sails and my hulls, and I don't think anybody should have the right to tell me I can't put the name of my company on my boat or paint my sails pink with yellow polka dots. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

The only possible limiting factor should be whether the advertising is in good taste. (Although, even the oldtime sailing ships had naked women out on their prows. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

Is the problem that other sailors think the sailors with advertising on their sails are better sailors, or "professional" just because it appears they are being sponsored by businesses?

So what? That has nothing to do with their sailing ability. As I said before, it just shows that they are better salesmen. And besides, the more stuff they stick on their sails, the heavier their sails and the more it slows them down. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sails are natural billboards, and we ought to use them to help defray our costs of sailing -- or at least to promote our own businesses. We put advertising on our cars, so why not on our boats?

What if I decided to put bumper stickers on my sail and hulls from every state and every park and every resort or restaurant or country I have ever sailed at -- would that be illegal, too? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

What if I put advertising tattoos (temporary, I hope) on my body where they can be seen? Would that be illegal?

Last edited by Mary; 03/11/08 05:01 AM.
Re: Pro or not.. [Re: Mary] #135674
03/11/08 05:43 AM
03/11/08 05:43 AM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 145
Cheshire, UK
Simon Offline
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Simon  Offline
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Cheshire, UK
I have not been in very many regattas, but the few I have attended included Aruba (Olympians and professionals taking part), UK F18 Nationals (professionals included) and the Spitfire Europeans (all amateur (as far as I know!)).

In every case, all sailors were willing to help each other out, with loan equipment for repairs, and tips on rigging. I was parked next to one of these sailors throughout one of these events, and they were helpful to everyone who asked. The F18s even had training days beforehand and debriefs during the regatta, given by the paid sailors.

You can't get better than that, and basically for free.

I have also seen some 'unsportsmanlike' behaviour on the race course, by some of these people, but I realised that's all part of the (their) game, and they're pushing it to the limits!

I was very tempted to protest one of the Gold medalists, but figured I was motivated by the chance to say I had done so, rather than because I could benefit by any redress I might have been awarded! On the whole, their presence is very positive.


Simon
Shadow 067
Re: Pro or not.. [Re: Mary] #135675
03/11/08 05:56 AM
03/11/08 05:56 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
Mary, I think the whole ban on advertising goes way back to when US Sailing was called the US Yacht Racing Union. They used the word "Corinthian" quite a bit back then. It was supposed to be a "Gentleman's Sport", like Golf, where rich people got together on the weekends, wore funny clothes and showed everyone how much money they had, thus, there was no need for sponsorships to pay for sails and equipment. There was no money in winning, just a silver bowl or pickly dish.

Dennis Connor was hated by some when he turned the America's Cup into a full time job vs. a few weeks in June, way back in the 1970's, the years after Ted Turner and Gary Jobson won it (1977?)

If you look at most big-boat monohull regattas, it's still that way (Big boats, meaning 40'+). They do however hire Pro's to drive their boats, but they have put limits on just how many Pro's you can put on each boat.

Last edited by Timbo; 03/11/08 05:59 AM.

Blade F16
#777
Re: Pro or not.. [Re: Timbo] #135676
03/11/08 06:06 AM
03/11/08 06:06 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Well, here are some of the definitions of "corinthian," and I guess they fit us all perfectly. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Noun 1. Corinthian - a man devoted to the pursuit of pleasure
man-about-town, playboy
hedonist, pleasure seeker, pagan - someone motivated by desires for sensual pleasures

Co·rin·thi·an (k-rnth-n)
adj.
1. Of or relating to ancient Corinth or its people or culture.
2. Architecture Of or relating to the Corinthian order.
3. Elegantly or elaborately ornate.
4. Given to licentious and profligate luxury.
n.
1. A native or inhabitant of Corinth.
2. A luxury-loving person; a bon vivant.
3. A wealthy amateur sportsman, especially an amateur yachtsman.

Re: Pro or not.. [Re: Mary] #135677
03/11/08 07:32 AM
03/11/08 07:32 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
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"pagan". I may have to change my boat's name.

Re: Pro or not.. [Re: Mark Schneider] #135678
03/11/08 07:50 AM
03/11/08 07:50 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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South Carolina
Oh for the love of....just because I've got sponsorship on my boat doesn't mean I'm going to play unfairly - that is what you're saying right? Besides, the only real Pro that I know is JC and I look forward to every opportunity I get to race against him.

I ditto what Mary keeps repeating; I couldn't do as much in this sport if it weren't for sponsors. I think you're just jealous about our great looking boat. And while Todd may let you come peel his decals off, that offer does not extend to mine.

You would probably argue that the result of not allowing pro's is because they take the game too seriously. Clearly, I'm not speaking on behalf of the pros out there, but I allege it's the Corinthians who actually take this too seriously.

[Linked Image]


Jake Kohl
Re: Pro or not.. [Re: Jake] #135679
03/11/08 09:37 AM
03/11/08 09:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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I would argue it's the Corinthians who get pissed when pro's show up with -free- equipment. We could all go a whole lot faster on a brand new boat with brand new sails and a brand new harness, to say nothing of being able to sail with a guy who does it for a living. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Still, I would prefer to be able to race with pro's when it comes to this sport, and by that I mean, against pro's. I know there is no way I will beat them but as long as they are willing to put on a free clinic before/after/during a regatta, and explain some of the finer points to us weekend warriors, I'm all for it.

And if you ever get a lucky shift and beat Randy to A mark, well, you will have bragging rigths for at least a week or two! I like having them at the regattas so I can ask questions, as long as they are willing to answer, I'm all for it. If instead they want to be A-holes about it, then I think I might -accidently- drive my Inter 20 right into them...:o That Karma thing. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

But that brings up another question, Who's a Pro? Does owning a catamaran dealership make a guy a Pro? Does building cats for a living make you a Pro? How about sail makers, are they Pro's? Are they only Pro's when they are being paid to test sails and maybe given new boats to use as a test platform?

I think not, for our discussions. On the other hand, if a guy is PAID to race the boat, not build it, etc. then he is a "Pro" in my book. Or, if he was once paid to race, and was good at it, he's a Pro. Like racing a weekend buoy race against Russel Couts, or something like that, vs. racing against Kirk Newkirk, who is not paid to sail but sells boats.

Still, I would rather the Pro's came to our local races as it improves the quality of the competion, usually. As far as a Pro racing in the "Corinthian" Alter Cup??? I don't know that that has ever been brought up.

About the attached photo; my company did pay for the stickers and paint on the spinnaker only. I was hoping to get them to pay for a new set of sails for the next year, but they went bankrupt instead, I never got a dime out of them for sails or equipment... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Attached Files
137440-Songspinnaker.jpg (70 downloads)
Last edited by Timbo; 03/11/08 12:03 PM.

Blade F16
#777
Re: Pro or not.. [Re: Jake] #135680
03/11/08 09:46 AM
03/11/08 09:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Annapolis, MD
Quote
Oh for the love of....just because I've got sponsorship on my boat doesn't mean I'm going to play unfairly - that is what you're saying right?


of course I am not saying that. (I make all of the CBYRA events Catagory C to accomodate you.... I also count on nobody paying attention to the CBYRA rules).

The issue is one about the "good of the sport" and how do you manage it.
Eg... should the guy with carbon fiber prosethetic legs be allowed to run the regular olympics? For sure, he is not cheating.

Should Joe's Meat shop Inc, and the owner, Joe be allowed to advertise on his Hobie 16 and thus write the boat and all of his expenses off on his buisness as an advertising expense at your standard Hobie division points regatta.

You could take Mary's position... who cares.... its' a pro am game.

Alternatively. you could ask
Will Joe's actions have a corrosive effect on the pecking order in the Hobie 16 class? Will some people say... Hmm... Not a game I will compete in.

The host yacht club and the class associations make those decisions. Almost universally, they do not tolerate this mixing of pro and corinthian sailing ... they understand its not good for the game they are running. It's part of the reason they give trophies and not cash prizes.

The IHCA allows catagory C but allows organizing authorites to restrict this practice. They reserve the right to brand National and World events?

Does anyone know if specific divisions or Hobie clubs have restricted this in the past? Catagory C is a relatively recent addition to the rule book.


Last edited by Mark Schneider; 03/11/08 10:01 AM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Pro or not.. [Re: Mark Schneider] #135681
03/11/08 10:02 AM
03/11/08 10:02 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
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fin. Offline
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I don't care who sails what. But, if you're one of the best sailors in world and you're being supplied by the factory I think you have an obligation to state the fact, if for no other reason than simple courtesy. If simple courtesy is beneath you, that's your call.

We week-end warriors are paying the bills. We are the ones buying what few boats are being sold. In recognition of that, a simple declaration is not too much to ask. A level playing field is not achievable, but I would like to know how big the bumps are.

Last edited by Tikipete; 03/11/08 10:10 AM.
Re: Pro or not.. [Re: fin.] #135682
03/11/08 10:59 AM
03/11/08 10:59 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 975
South Louisiana, USA
Clayton Offline
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Of course I'm not a big racer but here is my opinion, fwiw. If someone gets sponsors to help with his equipment it doesn't make him a pro. (Like Mary said, it makes him a good salesman) Others complain about said person getting newer equipment when we have to use what we can scrounge up. If the issue is equipment, weather he buys it or gets it by sponsorship, why not protest the guy who does really well (financially) and is able to just go out and buy the equipment? Its the same thing... there will always be inequalities because of this (money) issue.

Some guys have talent (discussed in another thread not to be done again!) and others can learn really well and become proficient enough to be at the top of the fleets consistantly. Would you consider them pros? Not if they don't get paid you say? What if they beat some "pros"?

Bottom line is, pro or no pro, the idea is to go out and sail. Try to be the best that you can if thats what you want and who knows you may just end up beating a "pro" at some point. For me, its sailing with others trying to make the boat go as fast as I can. If I can do well then I've accomplished what I've set out to do.

I say we all Play together... AND PLAY NICE!!!!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Clayton

Re: Pro or not.. [Re: Clayton] #135683
03/11/08 11:07 AM
03/11/08 11:07 AM
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Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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Karl, as Mark just posted, the Hobie class rules allow Category C advertising.

As for the host of other questions by Mary and others, there are clear definitions in the rules and ISAF regs on what constitutes advertising, and what constitutes being a "Pro."

As for an OA deciding to limit advertising that is otherwise allowed per the rules of a class, that would need to be in the NOR, and you should expect that it "could" impact the turnout at your event (people aren't likely to start peeling stickers just to attend your event).

In general, this is one of those politics and religion issues, I think. There's no way everyone is ever going to get on the same side of the fence.

Since there is a variety of options available, the best course may be to decide what matters to you, and find the class and type of event that suits your preference rather than trying to change the events and classes to suit your preference.

Mike

Re: Pro or not.. [Re: brucat] #135684
03/11/08 11:27 AM
03/11/08 11:27 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Mike

the Hobie 16 probably has the longest set of traditions in place and the class has run their own events for years and years. Do you have a policy or class culture? You don't see any NASCAT 16;s out there.

Is there a common practice? Does the class culture stomp on Joe and his Joe's Meat Market program and make it clear that he is not playing nicely in the sandbox?

The Nacra 20's and the Worrel/Tybee grew together and so the NASCAT look and culture are accepted. (Don't worry Todd... you don't have to worry about me ripping the stickers off your boat over your cold dead body)

I know I have seen Coca Cola branded H16 boats that come from the Mexican Worlds? or ISAF Youth games? and nobody has been forced to take the stickers off.


Last edited by Mark Schneider; 03/11/08 11:34 AM.

crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Pro or not.. [Re: Mark Schneider] #135685
03/11/08 11:47 AM
03/11/08 11:47 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 749
Santa Cruz, CA
SurfCityRacing Offline
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Quote

I know I have seen Coca Cola branded H16 boats that come from the Mexican Worlds? or ISAF Youth games? and nobody has been forced to take the stickers off.


If you did take the stickers off you could be protested. That's how the boat was delivered by the factory. And, according to class rules the boat has to be sailed..."as supplied by the Hobie factory." <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Re: Pro or not.. [Re: Mark Schneider] #135686
03/11/08 11:53 AM
03/11/08 11:53 AM
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 393
Syracuse,N.Y
pbisesi Offline
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pbisesi  Offline
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Syracuse,N.Y
multi-post reply:

OK, there was a time that I couldn't sail at a Nationals because I wasn't good enough. Now there is discussion to get rid of people that are to good. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

People should be able to get whatever sponsorship they can and paste the stickers all over if they want. (although Bru-cat made me dizzy).Great marker boat on different tacks.

I do think people want to help but often don't know what to do. I always asked for volunteers by telling someone that I needed them for a job, who would help them and what they needed to do(railroad style).I can't think of anyone not agreeing to help. my 2 shillings

Last edited by pbisesi; 03/11/08 11:54 AM.

Pat Bisesi Fleet 204
Re: Pro or not.. [Re: Mark Schneider] #135687
03/11/08 11:58 AM
03/11/08 11:58 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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Hi Mark,

Yes, my boat that I referred to was a Hobie 16. There are several other Hobies (including 16s) that race regularly that have sponsors, including at least one Youth team. The Puerto Rican and Brazilian teams always have sponsors so they can attend NAs.

The only year that special provisions were made for NAs (that I'm aware of) was 2005 when the H16s were in Ventura on supplied boats. The Worlds are also supplied boats (Coca-Cola, etc.).

We just want more boats on the water. No one has come to an event with lots of money and a new (sponsored) boat, and won the event. Even if that happened, I don't think anyone would reject them, I think they would see that as a reason to figure out why they got beat and try to win the next time.

I'm talking about non-H16 "pros" here, not Enrique, who comes in with Red Bull and Suzuki and kills us on a charter boat. Even if we gave him a 1983 boat half-filled with water, he'd probably kill us. And that's the point. On most of our boats, you need time on the water in the fleet to win. The rest is just extra weight and drag...

Pat, BRU Cat made ME dizzy! And, it was almost always at the back of the fleet, so if you were finding me near you, chances are you were getting killed too... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Mike

Re: Pro or not.. [Re: Mark Schneider] #135688
03/11/08 12:04 PM
03/11/08 12:04 PM
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 2,584
+31NL
Tony_F18 Offline
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Why would anyone object to someone having a few stickers on their boat? If you can find a sponsor to keep the costs down a little then IMHO that's awesome.
It doesn't necessarily say anything about how professional they are though.

As for the Pro's, the ones I have met so far are very helpful and are responsible for taking the sport as a whole to another level.

Edit: The only case that I know of where some yacht had to remove his stickers was in Belgium (where else? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />), they where promoting a political campaign.

Last edited by Tony_F18; 03/11/08 12:07 PM.
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