I love competing on the race course against pros. It is awesome to watch how smoothly they sail if you are lucky enough to get close enough to watch. I've even stayed in dirty air and let a pro roll right over us just to be able to watch their technique.

I've also found them very open on giving advice - in one case a pro came over to us on the water one time between races and discussed some tuning issues.

As for stickers - I think they make the sport look more colorful and attractive to the public and are a great way of offsetting some of the costs of racing. Just 'cause you have a bunch of stickers on the boat don't make you fast. Quality time on the water is what counts. In the classes I'm involved with (F18 or Hobie Tiger OD) the class rules are tight enough that I don't think a team can buy a clear advantage with money unless they invest it in a coaching program under a professional or use it to travel to big events to gain experience.

Awwww ,Come on Mark,
I've got a bunch of sails I need the stickers off of and It's way harder than you'd think to get 'em off without ruining the sail.You could get out some of your aggression on 'em.I'd love to have a pure white sail. I'll bring a set to Spring fever just to let you practice on, cuz that's the swell kinda guy I am.We'll talk about this there over a cold barley sandwich.
Do you honestly think guys like me, Jake,Kirby,etc. are a threat to the sport because we have stickers on our sails. Just like I've told you every year when you bring this up, for every dollar that has been donated to my team I've spent at least a $100 of my own.I always said I oughta just put my Credit card number on the sail,cuz that's my sponsor. 100:1 is a pretty dangerous spending ratio ,Think about it, since you like to over think stuff.

Bwaaaahaaahaaa! Boy...I say boy, that's the truth right thar.

My wife just offered me $1,000.00 to race in the Macho Man. Does that make ME a PRO?

As boring as NASCAR is, it would probably be worse than it is if the cars were almost all white, with just the manufactures name, possibly logo, and a number painted on the cars. There is shear genius in marketing when it comes to NASCAR, otherwise how could something so dull be so successfull?

No, but it does make you a stud...that is....unless she's trying to get a weekend alone with her boyfriend. What was her name again? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lola.

Take a look at the article in Sailing World this month

The article recounts the history of how to handle the Pro / AM nature of the sport.

Most of the favorable points that supporters brought up in this thread of the Pro/am game are also noted in the article. The fuzzy lines for this game date all the way back. Rules have come an gone or been ignored for ever.

So,

In a NYYC survey... 43% felt that proffesionalism was a problem. Just under half thought that the pro's should not compete in the amateur ranks! (What is it for cat sailors ... are we that much different from the rest of the world)

The Mumm 36 class cratered when the amateurs stopped playing.
The most proffesional catamaran class in the USA was the Tornado Class...No restrictions on advertising or proffesionalism. Total North american boats that go racing. maybe 10... number of regattas in USA 3.
Total left after the Olympic carrot taken away ??? Regattas scheduled in 08 ZERO!

Yet the amateurs LOVED racing against the pros (That was my experience as well).... Hmm.. my take home point... the mix is not sustainable.

the next big class became the Farr 40 class which limited the pro's contribution to 4 on the boat.

The NYC guys created a new class and new boat from scratch the Swann 42 where the fundamental rule is no play to pay.


So... The big point is to address the question. "what is the proper balance of pro / am for catamaran class growth."

Seems to me... that proper balance would have as a first step. No advertising on the sails at all events below a North American championship. (put the stickers on and off as needed. If you want to keep them on for your sponsor you .... you can race in the pro class for your boat.
(The Low Rent Regatta did this for years with a manufacturer class racing seperately from the Amateur class

This no advert rule is almost a universal principal of yacht clubs and most classes around the country. Maybe we should follow the lead!

And while we are at it, I think advertising should also not be allowed on T-shirts and hats, and beer sponsors for regattas should not be allowed.

My opinions.
When are you a professional: When you are racing sailboats full time, and are paid to do it.
What do other amateurs feel about competing with professionals on the racecourse: When I have gone to a "professional" event I mentally "block them out" from the results, studying how we have done against the other amateurs instead.
Fair or not: I know we are not competing on an equal basis.
Good for the sport or not: I dont think mixing amateurs and pros in any sport is good for the sport.


The pros bring both good and not so good to the sport. My thinking is that if we want to grow the numbers in the sport of sailboat racing we should not mix pros and amateurs. We race to win, and amateurs will very, very, rarely win against professionals. We can enjoy and shine in our own progress, but in the end racing is about winning, not how much better you have become. Many say this is not the case, but in the end, honestly, you race to win. Digress: There being only one winner is another reason why we (catamaran racers) should emphasize the social aspect of going racing.

Mark,

You've gone off the deep end. Stickers "on and off"? It takes me anywhere from 25 to 40 hours to design, manufacture, and apply the graphics on one of our Team Seacats sails and if I were charging full price for it, the job would be about $1500. Pulling them off takes about 30 to 40% longer than applying them.

I think part of the distinction being grossly missed here is that none of these guys that sail in our catamaran regattas could be considered pros - I'm CERTAINLY not a pro yet I carry sponsors.

I was at a monohull regatta a couple of years ago where one of the winning boats was protested at the end of the regatta because "he was a pro". He IS a sailmaker and he wins a lot of regattas (and has been known to shave a rule or two) but he is not a professional sailor though his profession is in sailing. The protest was eventually tossed but it did make us sit around waiting hours for the awards presentation.

Examples like this are simply bad sportsmanship - sore loser if you like. If I race a catamaran PRO on the water and I get beat, I got beat by a better team.

I do agree, however, that in cases of big money that the direction of a class could get frustrating for some owner/sailors but I think you only see these dramatic affects on teams that require much more than two people on the boat - I think the drastic difference in financial investment and performance can be cause for a lot of frustration but I also believe that this should be regulated by the individual class - not the regatta.

There is probably 4 or 5 catsailors in the US that could be considered "pro" anyway so why are we even having this conversation?

but in the end racing is about winning

But winning for me is a relative thing. I still get excited in the small wins I have at each regatta. The ONE time I get to the A-mark first. The ONE time I didn't follow the pack and pulled out a first, in ONE race.

The guys that go to the Pro-Am type of events in other sports do it for the social aspect as well as the chance to have that small win. Or to have one of the Pro's give them a word of encouragement, or coaching tip.

Most of us are already trying to beat the "local pro" in our own areas. It's how we gauge our performance. Then one day we wake up and we are the "local pro". Either through experience, or attrition.

I think in the end there are events that the PRO's don't want amatuers in, and visa-versa.

But when I wanted to pump up support for a youth event, one of my first thoughts was, "how do I get a PRO, big name, hot-shot to come and talk to the kids?"

Winning can be a relative thing, but the big thing is to be at the top of the list, isn't it? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> There is only room for one (person/team) at the top, so there is no big surprise that attrition is a problem in racing.



That is on the fringe of the question, but OK. If the world champion was an amateur or a pro, what difference would it make to the kids?

[quote]Winning can be a relative thing, but the big thing is to be at the top of the list, isn't it? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
[quote]

No, I'd be very happy with being number 10. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'd be even happier to be getting paid to go sailing and racing everyday.
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
good discussion Rolf...

Hey Jake, I'm gonna have to tag out and hand this debate over to you. I've been arguing with Mark for almost 10 years over this. He doesn't get the distinction between us and pros and obviously doesn't know what a PITA stickers are to apply or remove. The deep end remark fits. It's truly a shame because he puts forth huge amounts of effort in organizing races and trying to build fleets, and then turns around and comes up with this garbage which if implemented would cut the fleets we have down the middle.
Mark if you read this could you please define what YOU think a pro class sailor would be.
Todd

What would your definition of a pro be then? Do you think pros under your definition are good for the sport? Honestly, I am interested.
I think this is an important discussion to have in sailing. Not just for the cats but all sailing.

My definition of a pro is one who makes his living(read is paid for)racing sailboats. That means a salary not free equipment, not a case of beer, or gas money. And yes I think pros are good for the sport, they make everyone else step up their game.Unless your the number 1 amateur, your getting beat by somebody, don't be sour because it's a pro sailor.The best are the best, if your getting beat by them then yes it does get frustrating but don't confuse getting beat by someone because they were getting paid with the fact that maybe they were just better than you.
Todd

Mark seemed to be talking about the big monohulls where a guy buys a boat and then hires a bunch of professionals to race it. I don't see any relevance to beach cats.

Then you and I agree on what we think a pro is.
As I wrote earlier, I dont think pros and amateurs compete on an equal basis. They practice as a living and for a living, while we do it as a pasttime. Time in the boat is the large difference between a pro and an amateur. Time in the boat is a race winner, we know that.
You say they are good for the sport becouse they raise the performance level needed to compete? Raising the quality and performance is a good thing. On the other hand, how many quit racing or never begin becouse they realise they can never get at the top of the game?

I am certainly not a top amateur racer being beat just by the pros, and becouse of it resenting pros. I am thinking about the sport in general and racing small boats specifically.

IMHO being a "Pro" or an "Amateur" (Hate these words) is all about a matter of attitude and not if you "get paid" to sail.
If I recall correctly Laruffa won the Tiger Worlds ahead of the "Pros" by having a professional (thorough) preparation.
In Holland anywayz the "Pros" get beaten by the "amateurs" on a regular basis. If you dont have a professional attitude you will indeed always remain an "amateur".