| Re: Pro or not..
[Re: flumpmaster]
#135690 03/11/08 06:15 PM 03/11/08 06:15 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | Awwww ,Come on Mark, I've got a bunch of sails I need the stickers off of and It's way harder than you'd think to get 'em off without ruining the sail.You could get out some of your aggression on 'em.I'd love to have a pure white sail. I'll bring a set to Spring fever just to let you practice on, cuz that's the swell kinda guy I am.We'll talk about this there over a cold barley sandwich. Do you honestly think guys like me, Jake,Kirby,etc. are a threat to the sport because we have stickers on our sails. Just like I've told you every year when you bring this up, for every dollar that has been donated to my team I've spent at least a $100 of my own.I always said I oughta just put my Credit card number on the sail,cuz that's my sponsor. 100:1 is a pretty dangerous spending ratio ,Think about it, since you like to over think stuff.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Pro or not..
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#135691 03/11/08 08:31 PM 03/11/08 08:31 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | for every dollar that has been donated to my team I've spent at least a $100 of my own. Bwaaaahaaahaaa! Boy...I say boy, that's the truth right thar.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Pro or not..
[Re: arbo06]
#135694 03/12/08 09:30 PM 03/12/08 09:30 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | My wife just offered me $1,000.00 to race in the Macho Man. Does that make ME a PRO? No, but it does make you a stud...that is....unless she's trying to get a weekend alone with her boyfriend. What was her name again? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Pro or not..
[Re: arbo06]
#135696 03/15/08 12:28 PM 03/15/08 12:28 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | Take a look at the article in Sailing World this month Corinthian Dreams The fledgling Club Swan 42 class is building its base and its vitality by pitting talented amateurs shoulder-to-shoulder. by Stuart Streuli The article recounts the history of how to handle the Pro / AM nature of the sport. Most of the favorable points that supporters brought up in this thread of the Pro/am game are also noted in the article. The fuzzy lines for this game date all the way back. Rules have come an gone or been ignored for ever. So, In a NYYC survey... 43% felt that proffesionalism was a problem. Just under half thought that the pro's should not compete in the amateur ranks! (What is it for cat sailors ... are we that much different from the rest of the world) The Mumm 36 class cratered when the amateurs stopped playing. The most proffesional catamaran class in the USA was the Tornado Class...No restrictions on advertising or proffesionalism. Total North american boats that go racing. maybe 10... number of regattas in USA 3. Total left after the Olympic carrot taken away ??? Regattas scheduled in 08 ZERO! Yet the amateurs LOVED racing against the pros (That was my experience as well).... Hmm.. my take home point... the mix is not sustainable. the next big class became the Farr 40 class which limited the pro's contribution to 4 on the boat. The NYC guys created a new class and new boat from scratch the Swann 42 where the fundamental rule is no play to pay. So... The big point is to address the question. "what is the proper balance of pro / am for catamaran class growth." Seems to me... that proper balance would have as a first step. No advertising on the sails at all events below a North American championship. (put the stickers on and off as needed. If you want to keep them on for your sponsor you .... you can race in the pro class for your boat. (The Low Rent Regatta did this for years with a manufacturer class racing seperately from the Amateur class This no advert rule is almost a universal principal of yacht clubs and most classes around the country. Maybe we should follow the lead!
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Pro or not..
[Re: Mary]
#135698 03/15/08 01:39 PM 03/15/08 01:39 PM |
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 4,451 West coast of Norway Rolf_Nilsen OP
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Posts: 4,451 West coast of Norway | When are you a professional and what do other amateurs feel about competing with professionals on the racecourse? Fair or not? Good for the sport or not? My opinions. When are you a professional: When you are racing sailboats full time, and are paid to do it. What do other amateurs feel about competing with professionals on the racecourse: When I have gone to a "professional" event I mentally "block them out" from the results, studying how we have done against the other amateurs instead. Fair or not: I know we are not competing on an equal basis. Good for the sport or not: I dont think mixing amateurs and pros in any sport is good for the sport. The pros bring both good and not so good to the sport. My thinking is that if we want to grow the numbers in the sport of sailboat racing we should not mix pros and amateurs. We race to win, and amateurs will very, very, rarely win against professionals. We can enjoy and shine in our own progress, but in the end racing is about winning, not how much better you have become. Many say this is not the case, but in the end, honestly, you race to win. Digress: There being only one winner is another reason why we (catamaran racers) should emphasize the social aspect of going racing. | | | Re: Pro or not..
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#135699 03/15/08 01:41 PM 03/15/08 01:41 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | Seems to me... that proper balance would have as a first step. No advertising on the sails at all events below a North American championship. (put the stickers on and off as needed. If you want to keep them on for your sponsor you .... you can race in the pro class for your boat. (The Low Rent Regatta did this for years with a manufacturer class racing seperately from the Amateur class
This no advert rule is almost a universal principal of yacht clubs and most classes around the country. Maybe we should follow the lead! Mark, You've gone off the deep end. Stickers "on and off"? It takes me anywhere from 25 to 40 hours to design, manufacture, and apply the graphics on one of our Team Seacats sails and if I were charging full price for it, the job would be about $1500. Pulling them off takes about 30 to 40% longer than applying them. I think part of the distinction being grossly missed here is that none of these guys that sail in our catamaran regattas could be considered pros - I'm CERTAINLY not a pro yet I carry sponsors. I was at a monohull regatta a couple of years ago where one of the winning boats was protested at the end of the regatta because "he was a pro". He IS a sailmaker and he wins a lot of regattas (and has been known to shave a rule or two) but he is not a professional sailor though his profession is in sailing. The protest was eventually tossed but it did make us sit around waiting hours for the awards presentation. Examples like this are simply bad sportsmanship - sore loser if you like. If I race a catamaran PRO on the water and I get beat, I got beat by a better team. I do agree, however, that in cases of big money that the direction of a class could get frustrating for some owner/sailors but I think you only see these dramatic affects on teams that require much more than two people on the boat - I think the drastic difference in financial investment and performance can be cause for a lot of frustration but I also believe that this should be regulated by the individual class - not the regatta. There is probably 4 or 5 catsailors in the US that could be considered "pro" anyway so why are we even having this conversation?
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Pro or not..
[Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
#135700 03/15/08 02:27 PM 03/15/08 02:27 PM |
Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 334 Seattle,Wa Don_Atchley
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Posts: 334 Seattle,Wa |
We race to win, and amateurs will very, very, rarely win against professionals. We can enjoy and shine in our own progress, but in the end racing is about winning, not how much better you have become. Many say this is not the case, but in the end, honestly, you race to win.
but in the end racing is about winning But winning for me is a relative thing. I still get excited in the small wins I have at each regatta. The ONE time I get to the A-mark first. The ONE time I didn't follow the pack and pulled out a first, in ONE race. The guys that go to the Pro-Am type of events in other sports do it for the social aspect as well as the chance to have that small win. Or to have one of the Pro's give them a word of encouragement, or coaching tip. Most of us are already trying to beat the "local pro" in our own areas. It's how we gauge our performance. Then one day we wake up and we are the "local pro". Either through experience, or attrition. I think in the end there are events that the PRO's don't want amatuers in, and visa-versa. But when I wanted to pump up support for a youth event, one of my first thoughts was, "how do I get a PRO, big name, hot-shot to come and talk to the kids?" Hobie Tiger 2003 | | | Re: Pro or not..
[Re: Don_Atchley]
#135701 03/15/08 02:42 PM 03/15/08 02:42 PM |
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 4,451 West coast of Norway Rolf_Nilsen OP
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Posts: 4,451 West coast of Norway | Winning can be a relative thing, but the big thing is to be at the top of the list, isn't it? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> There is only room for one (person/team) at the top, so there is no big surprise that attrition is a problem in racing. But when I wanted to pump up support for a youth event, one of my first thoughts was, "how do I get a PRO, big name, hot-shot to come and talk to the kids?"
That is on the fringe of the question, but OK. If the world champion was an amateur or a pro, what difference would it make to the kids? | | | Re: Pro or not..
[Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
#135702 03/15/08 02:50 PM 03/15/08 02:50 PM |
Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 334 Seattle,Wa Don_Atchley
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Posts: 334 Seattle,Wa | [quote]Winning can be a relative thing, but the big thing is to be at the top of the list, isn't it? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> [quote]
No, I'd be very happy with being number 10. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I'd be even happier to be getting paid to go sailing and racing everyday. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> good discussion Rolf... Hobie Tiger 2003 | | | Jake, tag your it.
[Re: Don_Atchley]
#135703 03/15/08 03:03 PM 03/15/08 03:03 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | Hey Jake, I'm gonna have to tag out and hand this debate over to you. I've been arguing with Mark for almost 10 years over this. He doesn't get the distinction between us and pros and obviously doesn't know what a PITA stickers are to apply or remove. The deep end remark fits. It's truly a shame because he puts forth huge amounts of effort in organizing races and trying to build fleets, and then turns around and comes up with this garbage which if implemented would cut the fleets we have down the middle. Mark if you read this could you please define what YOU think a pro class sailor would be. Todd
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: Jake, tag your it.
[Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
#135705 03/15/08 03:29 PM 03/15/08 03:29 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | My definition of a pro is one who makes his living(read is paid for)racing sailboats. That means a salary not free equipment, not a case of beer, or gas money. And yes I think pros are good for the sport, they make everyone else step up their game.Unless your the number 1 amateur, your getting beat by somebody, don't be sour because it's a pro sailor.The best are the best, if your getting beat by them then yes it does get frustrating but don't confuse getting beat by someone because they were getting paid with the fact that maybe they were just better than you. Todd
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
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