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going downhill with my body leads to cat adaption
by northsea junkie. 03/12/20 08:13 AM
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Feeder class for F16 #136972
03/19/08 11:01 AM
03/19/08 11:01 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Folks,

at my club there is no program for those who grow out of the Opti. We also loose a lot of the elder kids in the Opti program, pretty much like everywhere else due to different and much debated reasons.
Nationally there is a small 29er class and we have one of those at the club. Nice boat, but hard to sail and no expertise at the club so it has fizzled.

A friend and I was discussing if we could get a program going for those growing out of the Opti. The F16 is a bit potent and hard to right for these kids? Or? What class should we aim for and why? We would like an easy to sail but still challenging doublehander. The "market" is wide open, but since we both are multihull evangelists, we would obviously like it to be a multihull. Options, and why?

We discussed the Dart16X briefly. Good or no good for this application? Ref: http://www.seilvind.no/Dartbreng.pdf

Obviously, if we are to start something, we would probably need to run the program personally for 3-4 years, so it would be a long term comittment both for us and the club. But if this could create the basis for an F-16 class both locally and nationally, hey..

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Re: Feeder class for F16 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #136973
03/19/08 11:17 AM
03/19/08 11:17 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
F

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
I think you're fighting a loosing battle. Very soon after the Opti most of those kids are going to be consumed by the S-E-X class! So unless you can fit a bra on it, it doesn't matter.

Re: Feeder class for F16 [Re: fin.] #136974
03/19/08 11:24 AM
03/19/08 11:24 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
A cat have two hulls, so a large bra is possible <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Seriously, we need something to fill the gap and keep them interested. Sure many get "other" interests and we loose them for a while anyway, but with a fun program we should do better than todays rate at 100%.

To look at other possibilites at the same time, would the F16 or the Dart16X be the better sailing school cat for adults? I have an opinion, but others please.

Re: Feeder class for F16 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #136975
03/19/08 11:47 AM
03/19/08 11:47 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
PTP  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
dude... put the warning stickers on the cats and they will come running!

Re: Feeder class for F16 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #136976
03/19/08 11:57 AM
03/19/08 11:57 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,022
Lake Zurich, IL
MarkMT Offline
old hand
MarkMT  Offline
old hand

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,022
Lake Zurich, IL
Rolf, at Changi last weekend I noticed they have a number of Twincat 15s with spinnakers. Maybe an option worth considering.

http://www.2-win.fr/catamaran-twincat15_uk.php

Re: Feeder class for F16 [Re: MarkMT] #136977
03/19/08 01:34 PM
03/19/08 01:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
veteran
Jalani  Offline
veteran

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,382
Essex, UK
In the UK, apart from the Dart 16/16X the new kid on the block is the Topaz 16S/16CX. Better yet is it's little sister the Topaz 14 and its choice of 4 rigs. With Reg White behind the design it should be a reasonable performer...

Topaz 14 brochure


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: Feeder class for F16 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #136978
03/19/08 02:16 PM
03/19/08 02:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
F

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
H-16. Proven rugged design, plenty of thrills and spills. Lots of used boats to keep prices down. Not too big, not too small.

Re: Feeder class for F16 [Re: fin.] #136979
03/19/08 02:37 PM
03/19/08 02:37 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France
pepin Offline
old hand
pepin  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France
As John says. Reg White was at Datchet last Saturday with a Topaz 14 Extreme and that looked good. Big main, large spi. Get the cheaper rig with dacron main and you can put two kids on this no problemo.

Pete, IMHO A H16 is too powerful for kids out of an opti. Even with the baby^H^H^H^Hrental rig

Re: Feeder class for F16 [Re: fin.] #136980
03/19/08 05:25 PM
03/19/08 05:25 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
PTP  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
I am going to go against my friend Pete here and say NO to the H16. Just ain't sexy enough to modern eyes <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Re: Feeder class for F16 [Re: PTP] #136981
03/19/08 05:49 PM
03/19/08 05:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 90
South Carolina, USA
Corksfloat Offline
journeyman
Corksfloat  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 90
South Carolina, USA
If you truly want it to be a feeder to the F16 then the solution could be as simple as a lighter and smaller rig for the F16. Then you have a true dual purpose family boat.

The Laser and 29er have both done this with success.

Re: Feeder class for F16 [Re: Corksfloat] #136982
03/19/08 06:58 PM
03/19/08 06:58 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
FL
sail7seas Offline
addict
sail7seas  Offline
addict

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
FL

perhaps the blade 12? [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #136983
03/19/08 09:53 PM
03/19/08 09:53 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
old hand
Stewart  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Maybe the Blade F12? Then I dont know much...
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Re: Feeder class for F16 [Re: Corksfloat] #136984
03/19/08 10:33 PM
03/19/08 10:33 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,690
Seabrook, TX
DougSnell Offline
Pooh-Bah
DougSnell  Offline
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 1,690
Seabrook, TX
I got the 4.3 for my start to the Blade. It has everything you have but boards, just in a smaller scale. and MAN has the spin been a learning curve. Still a lot to learn but it is a HOOT!!! Can't wait and hope to make to you to live near GYC Pete. Once I get a little more job experience I can live and work anywhere.

Doug

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Re: Feeder class for F16 [Re: DougSnell] #136985
03/19/08 11:36 PM
03/19/08 11:36 PM
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 435
Finland
Gato Offline
addict
Gato  Offline
addict

Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 435
Finland
Rolf, had the feeling that I hered something about a F12 cat being developed for the kids???? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Re: Feeder class for F16 [Re: Gato] #136986
03/20/08 02:30 AM
03/20/08 02:30 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 951
Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
ncik Offline
old hand
ncik  Offline
old hand

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 951
Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
My F16 with upsized mosquito rig (square headed mosquito rig only) would hammer with two 50-60kg kids on board. It's along the same lines of an F16 with smaller rig.

Alternative, a mosquito, one or two up...It is being marketed as a "beginner" cat class here in Oz for juniors. Light, relatively cheap...

Re: Feeder class for F16 [Re: ncik] #136987
03/20/08 02:45 AM
03/20/08 02:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
old hand
macca  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
I thought the F16 was the feeder class??


________________________
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Re: Feeder class for F16 [Re: Gato] #136988
03/20/08 03:50 AM
03/20/08 03:50 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,382
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
veteran
JeffS  Offline
veteran

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,382
Kingston SE South Australia
I'm with you Gato how can a 16 be a feeder for 10-14yr old kids
regards


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: Feeder class for F16 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #136989
03/20/08 04:11 AM
03/20/08 04:11 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
old hand
Mark P  Offline
old hand

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
At the MYC Training has been going on for 20+yrs. We have seen approx 600 kids on the water during this time and to date only approx 4-6 have gone on to become full members and compete in Club racing. Given these statistics we have asked ourselves if training is worthwhile. A Club can't survive without members and training hasn't been the answer. We are really looking into this problem and have found two major issues. 1) All training is geared towards regional and national racing squads. If you don't make the grade then you're basically forgotten about. 2) All training is geared towards singlehanded handed sailing in Opti, Topper and Laser.
These two points in my opinion have put off 99% of all youngsters who have been fortunate enough to experience sailing. The looks and performance of the Opti could be putting off 90% of youngsters as soon as they go on the water. As a Club we have been looking to ditch the Opti for the more modern Bic but this is not likely to happen due to bureaucracy. We are also intending to purchase RS Feva's in order to promote more 2up sailing opportunities.
Unfortunately the UK trait of dismissing cats as an inadequate means of sailing is still fairly rife amongst some of our members, most of which who are involved with training and is probably due to being brainwashed by the RYA from such an early age!!! But a part from this small group the Club is really coming to terms with Cat sailing and racing to the extent that this year we are hosting the F16 Worlds, A Class Nationals in June and Tornado Nationals in Sept.
This wouldn't have been entertained less then 5 yrs ago so you never know maybe in the next 5 yrs we might be asking your advice on what the best small cat is for training. Good luck with the training programme and please let us know which cat you choose.


MP*MULTIHULLS
Re: Feeder class for F16 [Re: Mark P] #136990
03/20/08 04:53 AM
03/20/08 04:53 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline OP

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline OP

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Mark,

I wrote something about this in another thread. The problem with racing is that there can be only one winner, and is eliteist in nature. To keep the kids and youth interested we need something more. I remember from my own youth that tension was very high when we competed, but games, training and the social aspect was fun. There is more to it, like having organizers/coaches who are dedicated to what they are doing, structure, follow-up etc but making it fun is what we would focus on.
If this is going to happen "we" would take responsibility of the clubs youth program for the next 3-4 years. Recruiting, training, social happenings, keeping it going through winter etc etc. My goal would obviously be to 1: Get more youth into sailing for the sake of sailing. 2: Grow interest in the F16


About boats.
As F16s are rare on the used market, that route seems closed. Same for Mosquitos with a tuned down rig etc. The boats just dont exist here.
The Hobie16 seem a bit high powered, and might be a competitor to the F16 creating strife in the future. There are used boats on the market which is good for the economy.
Topaz sounds good. As does the Dart, both being rotomoulded.


Gato,
the F12 is not available yet. I dont think I want to build the boats for this but rather have the club finance them. Personally, I also want to see a spi on the boats with the opportunity for an adult to also go out with a kid. I am not really clear on where the F12 is going. Youth or kids (where the oppie is today)
I asked for opinions, and I sure got what I asked for <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
If this goes anywhere, I'll let you know.

Re: Feeder class for F16 [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #136991
03/20/08 05:43 AM
03/20/08 05:43 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 207
couldn't resist it
Codblow Offline
enthusiast
Codblow  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 207
couldn't resist it
Its a tricky one

at our club we sail A class, Stealth , Hurricane 5.9sx , Tornado olympic Sport ,Darts in all guises, we have run high performance cat regattas attracting the rest too , F16 , spitfires, f18s etc , and youngsters are not interested in cat sailing , think they are boring and for OLD farts with dull banter I'm afraid to say , they can be tempted to crew now and again , but look for rewards . Loch Ness race still attracts their attention though because it makes your balls grow <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
My sons moved from toppers to 29er youngest at only 12 and the helm, when you see kids flying about at hyper speed in these relatively (to cats and other monos ) very wobbly boats there would be no comparison , they quickly out grew the 29er after mastering it (they got too big !) , now sail 4000's want a 49er , foiling 600's or any other hp skiff they could get their paws on

When I was young cats were miles ahead in performance and glitz and quite rare , things to aspire too , the array of modern hp monos weren't about then .

Exspense of cats left them for later life .

Whilst cat sailors think they are cutting a dash on the edge of life compared to the younsters antics on skiffs its a bit pedestrian and safe for them ! and lets face it if we are to be honest we know its a LOT easier to sail a cat in any conditions when you know how .

only hope previously of getting young kids into cats was for olympic aspirations , but thats bin feked now ,

Still I hear theres some young uk cat sailors out sailing VX40s as we speak with alingi so theres hope there.

as cats sailing profile grows slowly and a cheap supply of HP cats filter down there will inevitabably some youth pickup .

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