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Question for Global Warming Skeptics #137059
03/20/08 01:58 AM
03/20/08 01:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 493
Minnesota
Jeff Peterson Offline OP
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Jeff Peterson  Offline OP
addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 493
Minnesota
Questions for Global Warming Skeptics:

(Note to others: If you believe that man-made global warming is real, PLEASE DO NOT participate in this discussion or debate the issue, no matter how great the temptation. That is not the purpose of the posting.)

My personal disclosure: (I’ll limit the details, as not to be an ego trip.) I’m extensively trained in the sciences and have participated in both academic and industrial research. I have been closely familiar with the theory of human-caused global warming due to excess greenhouse gasses, for 40 years. I’ve seen a lot of the data up close and know some of the frontline researchers related to climate and ice. I’ve had a very small part in getting some of this information out to the general public.

Now, if you have any reasonable understanding of the “scientific method”, you know it is impossible to prove or disprove the theory of man-made global warming, to the rigorous requirements applied to most scientific experimentation. We lack the necessary experimental control. The experimental control needed would be an identical solar system to our own containing an ‘earth’ where humans don’t put crap in the air. This is impossible. The best that can be done is to accumulate a preponderance of evidentuary data, that convinces enough people to use the political system to implement a political policy.

(Enough of me blowing wind.)

I would like to ask the wide variety of Global Warming Skeptics, what data, evidence, anecdotes, or strange occurrences, would definitely cause you to say, “You know, I’m beginning to think this man-made global warming thing, might be real” ?


Jeff Peterson
H-16 Sail #23721
Big Marine Lake, MN
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Question for Global Warming Skeptics [Re: Jeff Peterson] #137060
03/20/08 09:14 AM
03/20/08 09:14 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 109
Fl
Kaos Offline
member
Kaos  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 109
Fl
I am not sure you could convience me. A start might be to actually get the weather prediction for tomorrow correct. However, I have traveled way too much and realized just how big this planet is, couple that with the size of the sun, (something most people have no idea about) and you have no chance. What is also impossible, is for man to actually have any measurable effect even should they want to try. At this point in time we still are not capable of equally one volcano, in either power or pollution.
But the foremost reason, is that it is purely a topic of politics. Simply a way to take money from producers to give to the leaches. The US is by far the cleanest country in the world. Most of the countries exempt from any consideration involving solutions are the worst. The Countries of freedom and democracy are the producers and can also afford to be clean, the vast majority of the world is not free. Guess what, their dictators and leaders have no interest in cleaning up after themselves or others. Sorry to dump on your religion though, I understand your right to worship as you see fit.

Re: Question for Global Warming Skeptics [Re: Jeff Peterson] #137061
03/20/08 09:25 AM
03/20/08 09:25 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Quote
I would like to ask the wide variety of Global Warming Skeptics, what data, evidence, anecdotes, or strange occurrences, would definitely cause you to say, “You know, I’m beginning to think this man-made global warming thing, might be real” ?

Okay, the only thing that might convince me is if we ever explore the planet Venus and find out that its atmosphere was destroyed by a civilized life form using fossil fuels and hair spray. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Re: Question for Global Warming Skeptics [Re: Jeff Peterson] #137062
03/20/08 09:30 AM
03/20/08 09:30 AM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



Quote
(Note to others: If you believe that man-made global warming is real, PLEASE DO NOT participate in this discussion or debate the issue, no matter how great the temptation. That is not the purpose of the posting.)


I object in principal to being told not to participate.

This is an OPEN FORUM.

If you don’t want to hear from everybody, you need to create a survey and go to a mall with a clip board and bother people.

Re: Question for Global Warming Skeptics [Re: Jeff Peterson] #137063
03/20/08 09:32 AM
03/20/08 09:32 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9
Bradenton, FL
jswoerner Offline
stranger
jswoerner  Offline
stranger

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9
Bradenton, FL
WoW!

How about when an event like Mount Pinitubo happens and the same scientists come out with the same fervor.

How about when the same "scientists" stop encouraging other scientists to exaggerate stuff because it might be happening and if it is it would be really important.

How about if the "scientists" break ties with radical anti-capitalists

How about if Al (I invented the internet) Gore admits that CO2 is a lagging indicator of global warming instead of a leading one. For good measure he could also stop saying that sea levels "might" rise 15-20 feet. Pigs "might" fly but I'm not worried. While we're on it Big Al could stop using energy like it's going out of style (which unfortunately it's not) if he's so worried.

How about when the hole in the ozone is anywhere near where all the chloro-fluorocarbons are or anyone can produce evidence that that reaction has ever taken place outside a lab or why such a heavy molecule is in the ozone layer or how it got there.

How about when the "consensus" of scientists start presenting evidence instead of engaging in ad-hominem attacks.

How about if Russia brings all their weather stations in Siberia back online or we throw out that data from the past 50 years for comparison.

How about when a weather station in a cornfield becomes a weather station in a black asphalt parking lot we factor that in.

How about ... Oh I could go on for days

Any of the above start happening and we can talk.

Re: Question for Global Warming Skeptics [Re: jswoerner] #137064
03/20/08 12:15 PM
03/20/08 12:15 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 131
Southern Ontario
fredsmith Offline
member
fredsmith  Offline
member

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 131
Southern Ontario
Can we move this thread over to political anarchy, and go back to cat sailing.

Re: Question for Global Warming Skeptics [Re: fredsmith] #137065
03/20/08 01:18 PM
03/20/08 01:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 731
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
old hand
Will_R  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 731
Home is where the harness is.....
I don't think i could be convinced in the wake of all the data that supports that this is a normal cyclic occurance.

This article is REALLY good and provides some intersting points.
http://www.warwickhughes.com/agri/Solar_Arch_NY_Mar2_08.pdf

Re: Question for Global Warming Skeptics [Re: Will_R] #137066
03/20/08 02:14 PM
03/20/08 02:14 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,022
Lake Zurich, IL
MarkMT Offline
old hand
MarkMT  Offline
old hand

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 1,022
Lake Zurich, IL
I'll read the article when I get a chance (probably tonight). I don't have a strong opinion either way, but I think it's worth pointing out that the "International Conference on Climate Change" at which this was presented was not exactly an unbiased forum for open scientific dialog (if in fact such a thing exists). The Conference Program is subtitled "Can you hear us now? Global Warming is not a crisis!", next to a picture of a megaphone.

But really, I don't think this discussion belongs here. So let me hijack it right back to sailing - Jeff, will you be coming to the Broken Rudder WI-MN Challenge in July?

Re: Question for Global Warming Skeptics [Re: MarkMT] #137067
03/20/08 03:14 PM
03/20/08 03:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 731
Home is where the harness is.....
Will_R Offline
old hand
Will_R  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 731
Home is where the harness is.....
When discussing bias, it must be noted that the IPCC was created with the intent of prooving CO2 induced global warming. Just a little history fact. (Margret Thatcher in an attempt to get away from coal and oil b/c of the unions and their control)

Re: Question for Global Warming Skeptics [Re: Jeff Peterson] #137068
03/20/08 03:21 PM
03/20/08 03:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 320
Albuquerque NM
Banzilla Offline
enthusiast
Banzilla  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 320
Albuquerque NM
Quote
The best that can be done is to accumulate a preponderance of evidentuary data,


HUH???? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I'm looking for some wind


Sail Like you have a Pair
Re: Question for Global Warming Skeptics [Re: Will_R] #137069
03/20/08 03:33 PM
03/20/08 03:33 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Quote
The US is by far the cleanest country in the world.


*gurgle* *gurgle*

What method did you use when you decided that??


Temperature is rising, that is measurable. Ice in the artic and antartica is melting, also measurable and a clear indicator of temperature. Only thing left to debate is wether it is man made or a natural variation. Most of the scientists say "man made" while a few say "natural". Think I'll stick with the crowd..
Melt enough ice, disturb the golf stream and we are closing up the shop here in Norway on a very short notice. That is enough for me to decide that I am no fan of not trying to do anything.

Re: Question for Global Warming Skeptics [Re: Banzilla] #137070
03/20/08 03:46 PM
03/20/08 03:46 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Quote
I'm looking for some wind

Exactly!

It seems to me that weather is a pretty important factor for sailing. The first thing I do every morning is check the local weather on Intellicast or Weather Underground. I check to see which direction my flag is blowing and listen for whether my wind chimes are chiming, and I check our indoor-outdoor weather station for temperature and humidity and barometric pressure.

So I am VERY interested in the future trends of weather, whether it is going to be global warming or global cooling, and how that is going to affect sailing in all parts of the country and the world.

In other words, I think discussion of "global warming" is very relevant. It is just unfortunate that it has become so politicized that it is difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff.

As was said in that article in the prior post, it is going to be very, very costly if businesses and nations plan on the basis of warming and it turns out to be cooling, or vice versa. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Re: Question for Global Warming Skeptics [Re: Banzilla] #137071
03/20/08 04:11 PM
03/20/08 04:11 PM

A
Anonymous
Unregistered
Anonymous
Unregistered
A



I'm with MARY~!

Re: Question for Global Warming Skeptics [Re: Jeff Peterson] #137072
03/20/08 07:55 PM
03/20/08 07:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 138
California!
Inter_Michael Offline
member
Inter_Michael  Offline
member

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 138
California!
Mr. Heston says it best.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozO4YB98mCY

"Earth will survive us"

Re: Question for Global Warming Skeptics [Re: Inter_Michael] #137073
03/20/08 09:56 PM
03/20/08 09:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 100
Lindale, Texas Inland freshwa...
Wallybear Offline
member
Wallybear  Offline
member

Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 100
Lindale, Texas Inland freshwa...
It will take a tremendous amount more of hard evidence to convince me that global warming is manmade. I found these two very fine articles concerning global warming. Not everyone will agree with them but at the very least, they are well written.

The Myth of Dangerous Human-Caused Climate Change

Global Warming: Man-Made of Natural

Re: Question for Global Warming Skeptics [Re: Kaos] #137074
03/20/08 10:20 PM
03/20/08 10:20 PM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 88
South Australia
Phile Offline
journeyman
Phile  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 88
South Australia
Quote
The US is by far the cleanest country in the world. Most of the countries exempt from any consideration involving solutions are the worst. The Countries of freedom and democracy are the producers and can also afford to be clean, the vast majority of the world is not free. Guess what, their dictators and leaders have no interest in cleaning up after themselves or others. Sorry to dump on your religion though, I understand your right to worship as you see fit.


What a load of American far-right rubbish!!

According to the World Resources Institute in 2002 the USA had the second highest per capita carbon footprint, after Luxemburg, at 20.0 tons CO2 per person per year. The world wide average was 4.0 tons, and the average of all industrial nations was about 11 tons CO2 per person. No doubt these levels have increased significantly since 2002.

As I see it, the only hope for the global environment is if the American capitalistic system collapses under mounting debt and greed. I am pleased to see the many signs of this imminent collapse now emerging.

Re: Question for Global Warming Skeptics [Re: Phile] #137075
03/21/08 04:22 AM
03/21/08 04:22 AM
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 431
Netherlands
DennisMe Offline
addict
DennisMe  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 431
Netherlands
<rant>
Re : "imminent collapse"

That is an utterly disgusting and inhumane comment!
However you may think about some political system. Total collapse would hurt so many people in so many awful ways that the whole world would suffer. Think about all the (North)American folks the internet puts you in contact with. Do you really want them all to suffer loss of jobs, homes, even lives? A little humanity would suit you well.

</rant>
Sorry all, the pastor in me just kicked in...

Re: Question for Global Warming Skeptics [Re: Phile] #137076
03/21/08 06:32 AM
03/21/08 06:32 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 138
California!
Inter_Michael Offline
member
Inter_Michael  Offline
member

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 138
California!
Quote
Quote
The US is by far the cleanest country in the world. Most of the countries exempt from any consideration involving solutions are the worst. The Countries of freedom and democracy are the producers and can also afford to be clean, the vast majority of the world is not free. Guess what, their dictators and leaders have no interest in cleaning up after themselves or others. Sorry to dump on your religion though, I understand your right to worship as you see fit.


What a load of American far-right rubbish!!

According to the World Resources Institute in 2002 the USA had the second highest per capita carbon footprint, after Luxemburg, at 20.0 tons CO2 per person per year. The world wide average was 4.0 tons, and the average of all industrial nations was about 11 tons CO2 per person. No doubt these levels have increased significantly since 2002.

As I see it, the only hope for the global environment is if the American capitalistic system collapses under mounting debt and greed. I am pleased to see the many signs of this imminent collapse now emerging.



Sir,

Maybe you are aware that the majority of users here work hard for the money they have, enjoy the time spent with, and around their friends in the sport of sailing. All can attest that we spend way too much on our hobby/ sport. But we choose to participate in this wonderful action filled event in which we can all come together as 'sailors'.

With your kind permission, I would like to provide you with a link to a great web-site (forum) in which the subject matter is broad and diverse. You can post about politics, music, art, religion.... really anything you want. Like here, you find a common thread....

They are for the most part Anti-American. They parrot anti-Bush stuff, anti-USA speeches like any old bird, on any old post. They hope and pray that we fall and fail. I think you would like that place very much.

I somewhat find this amusing.... all the world likes or wishes the USA to fail (such as yourself), except for when they need us. Then, all of a sudden, the phone won't stop ringing! In some cases, they don't even have to call.... we are there, arms out, offering help.

I see you are an Aussie? Assume please that a QANTAS triple 7 has just been taken by radical [fill in the blank]... and has just wiped out that famous bridge of yours.... or that opera house. If that were the case, please don't worry....

Uncle Sam will be there for help and protection.... you would not even have to ask.

May we please get back to our lovely sport of sailing, friendship, and sharing? This site and forum while open to almost any post, is (by the name of the web-site) mostly for fun, sport, and sailing.

Would you like the link? I will be more than happy to provide it.

Cheers,
Michael

Re: Question for Global Warming Skeptics [Re: Kaos] #137077
03/21/08 06:38 AM
03/21/08 06:38 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 77
Tiger Offline
journeyman
Tiger  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 77
Quote
The US is by far the cleanest country in the world.


Ha ha ha! That is a good one...

Re: Question for Global Warming Skeptics [Re: Tiger] #137078
03/21/08 07:05 AM
03/21/08 07:05 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
See, now y'all are into politics instead of weather. PLEASE stay on topic.

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