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H16/H14 UPGRADES #14011
12/11/02 08:14 AM
12/11/02 08:14 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 206
Virginia USA
CMerrell Offline OP
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CMerrell  Offline OP
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Virginia USA
The deadline for voting on the 7 proposed H16 upgrades and 4 proposed H14 upgrades is December 15. A ballot was included on page 9 of the Aug/Sept 2002 issue of NAHCA News. Send your ballots to NAHCA Secretary Bruce Andrews.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: H16/H14 UPGRADES [Re: CMerrell] #14012
12/11/02 01:11 PM
12/11/02 01:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,252
California
mmiller Offline
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California
The "ballot" included in the article in the NAHCA News is a "comment" issue rather than a vote. The IHCA is looking for comments regarding the proposed changes.

Here is the text: "The purpose of this vote is to provide opportunity for members of the Hobie Class to participate in the rule change process and provide comment."

Any vote for changes will be at the IHCA General meeting at the Tiger Worlds in Singapore in February.

Here is a link to the August/Sept NAHCA News:
http://www.hobiecat.com/sailing/racing/nahca/nahca.pdf


Hobie Cat Forums
Matt Miller
Hobie Cat Company
Re: H16/H14 UPGRADES [Re: mmiller] #14013
12/12/02 08:21 AM
12/12/02 08:21 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 206
Virginia USA
CMerrell Offline OP
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Matt,
IHCA wants comments from sailors on the proposed rule changes. It seems NAHCA sees a "vote" on a "ballot" (these words are used several times in the NAHCA News article) as a good way to gather and quantify comments for our region.

Chris Merrell

Re: H16/H14 UPGRADES GENNAKER [Re: CMerrell] #14014
12/15/02 10:23 AM
12/15/02 10:23 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 95
Flensburg, Germany
Fritz Offline
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Flensburg, Germany
I am a bit wondering if I read:

"Hobie Cat has no plans to make a spinnaker standard equipment on the Hobie 16. It won't happen."

Isnīt it the sailor who has to decide?

Nice pictures about the gennacker are to be found under hobie-cat.net from HCE! They are happy to help out!

I thought I had posted an article similar to this but miraculous it DISAPPEARED!


Kind regards

Fritz

Re: H16/H14 UPGRADES [Re: CMerrell] #14015
01/14/03 10:46 PM
01/14/03 10:46 PM
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 70
Sodus NY
h16bill Offline
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The best thing I see would be adding a real mast rotator so we don't have to replace castings periodically.

cheers
Bill Jeffers
fleet 204

Re: H16/H14 UPGRADES - future ramifications [Re: h16bill] #14016
01/15/03 05:37 PM
01/15/03 05:37 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 390
samevans Offline
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I have seen the H14/H16 proposals and I am surprised at the lack of comments on them.
This is a phenomenal amount of changes from a company which has resisted change so strenuously for so long.
I was hoping that the need for ongoing changes in the Tiger, in order to remain competative, would trickle over into the "Classic" boats, but I am amazed.
If you look at the proposed changes for the Dragoon, you can see what may be in the H17/H16 future.
This could be the start of something interesting:-)

Re: H16/H14 UPGRADES - future ramifications [Re: samevans] #14017
01/15/03 11:47 PM
01/15/03 11:47 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 264
Neb
flounder Offline
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Neb
Just basic things on a H14 and 16 make a nice difference. I know a fellow that has customed out an H14 turbo, loose footed sail, square top Pentex, adjustable downhaul, etc..

Changes that need to be made to the H16 design:

1. Adjustable downhaul, 5:1 and lesser.
2. New boom assembly for a loose footed sail.
3. Ball in socket mast step which will allow for adjustable mast rotation.

The Hobie 16 is a fun boat and even with all of these changes, it still will not be very competitive with the other boats in the 16 foot classes. It was designed to be a beachcat, not a race boat.

Personally I think the 16 is on it's last leg. It was a great one design class, but the formula boats will dominate in the future. Plus a Nacra 570 is easier to handle, beach, holds more people, priced the same and is faster.

Re: H16/H14 UPGRADES - there is always hope [Re: flounder] #14018
01/16/03 12:00 PM
01/16/03 12:00 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 390
samevans Offline
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"Just basic things on a H14 and 16 make a nice difference."
I agree totally. The "no changes" philosophy has always used extra cost as an excuse, but how much do most simple improvments cost?

Cheap convenience improvements:
Increased downhaul - a couple of small cheap blocks and 10 feet of line.
Increase main sheet from 7:1 to 8:1- one block.
Downhaul cam cleat - $18

Not so cheap improvements:
Loose footed main - the existing boom could be modified into the new FX1/Tiger/Fox/Dragoon style with a few parts, but I don't know if the sail would need a major recut or be replaced.
Captive ball mast step - The Dragoon is in the process of converting from the H14/16 mast step to a H17/20 ball step. Lots of expensive parts.
Self tacking jib - Lots of parts and maybe a new jib.
Spinnaker - see above.

The hard core racer is going to spend plenty of money to stay competative with new sails, new wires, lighter blocks, maybe even a new, lighter boat. Despite what the oldies say, money still makes a difference.

While the H16 is losing sailors to the new hi-tech boats, I think there is a lot of life left in her. Part of the problem is image. A boat with a spi and a self-tacker just looks modern.

My main interest in the H14/16 improvements, as I am an H17 sailor, is that we will be next on the list for upgrades after Hobie is done with the H14/16 upgrades because I am tired of going to regattas and being in fear of my life going downwind with I20s and Tigers and other spi boats blasting around me.
WE NEED HELP!!!
Good luck to the H14/16 Class.

Re: H16/H14 UPGRADES - there is always hope [Re: samevans] #14019
01/16/03 12:26 PM
01/16/03 12:26 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
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MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Sam: at a spi to your 17.

Problem solved.

Re: H16/H14 UPGRADES - there is always hope [Re: samevans] #14020
01/16/03 01:08 PM
01/16/03 01:08 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 264
Neb
flounder Offline
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Neb
Technically, the mailsail does not have to be changed for a loose-footed setup. An S-hook between the stock gooseneck and a short harken traveler with S-hook for the outhaul would be the way I would do it.

The Hobie 16 is a great beach cat, don't get me wrong. I really don't like self-tacking jibs and think large foresails are for distance races or large course racing. The "regatta" is not changing with the times and boats. When there is a boat change, the course should change too.

Re: H16/H14 UPGRADES - class rules [Re: flounder] #14021
01/16/03 05:49 PM
01/16/03 05:49 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 390
samevans Offline
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MauganH17 - My point is that it must be Class(Hobie Corp.) approved first.

flounder - I just wonder if the cut of the standard sail will work properly if it is rigged loose-footed.
The boom should be attached to a fixed goose-neck like everybody else. A Harken traveler is very expensive and much heavier than the new system that Hobie is going to with the strap. It would be easy and cheap to install on an existing boom. Remember, the cost of an upgrade will affect wether or not it is approved. Look at the pictures at www.hobieclass.com - Rules Forum - Dragoon Upgrades.pdf.

I don't understand what you mean about "The "regatta" is not changing with the times and boats, When there is a boat change, the course should change."
What do you suggest?

Re: H16/H14 UPGRADES - class rules [Re: samevans] #14022
01/17/03 09:55 AM
01/17/03 09:55 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 264
Neb
flounder Offline
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Neb
It is my personal pref. that outhauls and travelers are not "internal mechanisms". Your in a race or in a lot of breeze and your outhaul line breaks, but it is run internally, thus very hard to fix. An exterior track is much easier to fix. It may not look as clean, but I believe in it.

A Harken traveler car and a 7" piece of track is not expensive when compared to a 7 or 8:1 mainsheet or even re rigging with spectra lines or a possible re-cut of a sail.

40' of standard dacron mainsheet line wet, hanging from the boom weighs more than a traveler car and a small aluminum track.


Re: H16/H14 UPGRADES [Re: CMerrell] #14023
01/17/03 10:05 AM
01/17/03 10:05 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 123
Syracuse, NY
deq204 Offline
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Syracuse, NY
I like most of the changes and have no objection to the rest EXCEPT THE SPINNAKER - NO SPINNAKER PLEASE.
Adjustable Downhaul - Like
Mast Rotate - Like
Jib Halyard - Like
Rudders - Not Sure
SPINNAKER - NO WAY JOSE
The rest - Don't care…
We don't need a spinnaker on the most successful beach cat in the history of sailing. I think the spinnaker is wrong for this boat. Heck - we break them now with the hard racing we do - what will a spinnaker do to it. And more important - most of the people who sail this boat, sail it because of it's simplicity to performance ratio. For what you have - you get a lot out of it. There is an F16 if you want a spinnaker. Keep the H16 Spinnaker free.

My $00.02

Re: H16/H14 UPGRADES [Re: deq204] #14024
01/17/03 10:17 AM
01/17/03 10:17 AM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,114
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MauganN20 Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Why no spi?

Re: H16/H14 UPGRADES [Re: MauganN20] #14025
01/17/03 10:24 AM
01/17/03 10:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 123
Syracuse, NY
deq204 Offline
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Syracuse, NY
In Reply to MAUGAN17 - Why no spi?
I can only say - WHY Spi? - I see no reason - I like it the way it is - and as I said befor: most of the people who sail (and race) this boat (on a regulay basis), sail it (and race it) because of it's simplicity to performance ratio. For what you have - you get a lot out of it. There is an F16 if you want a spinnaker.

Isn't it a good class now? I think most north American Racers Like it the way it is.

Rico
204

Re: H16/H14 UPGRADES [Re: deq204] #14026
01/17/03 10:54 AM
01/17/03 10:54 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 264
Neb
flounder Offline
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flounder  Offline
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Neb
I will go on record as saying I do not like class racing period. In the Hobie 16 class I don't think a large foresail will do much for it's in class racing.

Other boats (H17) should have allowed hooters a long time ago. Why on a 17 and not on a 16? Because 17's are notoriously slow downwind and a hooter presents a interesting control challenge for single handed sailors.

I have to agree: The Hobie 16 was always meant to be a simple boat. And it is an excellent beachcat. I believe in open class racing, thus if someone wants to use a huge foresail, it is fair game. I say sail what you want to sail, and if you win unexpectedly with an H16, you have my respect and the respect of many others. If not, we will all be having a hotdog and **** afterwards anyway.

Re: H16/H14 UPGRADES [Re: flounder] #14027
01/17/03 12:13 PM
01/17/03 12:13 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 54
Panama City Beach, FL
Sunjammers Offline
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Panama City Beach, FL
The Hobie 16 class is a great class to sail in. Look at the mega's, the H16 was the largest class. Class racing is much more fun that open, no numbers to figure, there's no well you have a more favorable rating, did you use the right wind range? There just something about being around other Hobie sailors, what can I say ITS A HOBIE THING!

HAVE A HOBIE DAY,
Brad Stephens
850-235-2281
www.sunjammers.com
Authorized Hobie/Vanguard Dealer


Thanks,
Brad Stephens
Panama City Beach, FL
Re: H16/H14 UPGRADES [Re: Sunjammers] #14028
01/17/03 01:24 PM
01/17/03 01:24 PM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 264
Neb
flounder Offline
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Neb
Spoken like a true Hobie dealer... ha ha ha. Just kidding.

I think class racing has become too exclusive. To be competitive in a class you need a newer boat, rigging, sails and that costs money. The only class racing that I would fully endorse would be the Hobie Wave because of the money issue and the potential for youth based learning.

Open format with no "speed ratings", a large, non-standard course with two groups: <17' and >17' is what I would like to see.
I don't it should be a Hobie Thing, I think it should be a sailing thing.

Re: H16/H14 UPGRADES [Re: flounder] #14029
01/17/03 06:32 PM
01/17/03 06:32 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 390
samevans Offline
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flounder - If you had looked at the picture, you would have seen that the proposed Dragoon boom has the outhaul mounted externally. It consists of one cheek air block $8.37, one single air block $7.32, one long "D" captive pin shackle $6.49, 8ft.(?) of 3/16" Spec-set $5.44 and in place of the stock webbing- 2 ft. of 5/16" Specta for loop $2.96, all for $30.58. The cheapest Harken setup - H157 traveler $77.75, 1ft. track $10.80, two end stops $7.30, one cheek air block $8.37, one long "D" captive pin shackle $6.49, 8ft.(?) of 3/16" Spec-set $5.44 for a total of $116.15. Which do you think is lighter?
How can class racing be any more expensive than handicap racing? There is always an advantage to the person willing to spend more money on their boat.
Class racing is, and always be, the fairest form of racing. How could you be against that? The handicap systems CANNOT fairly take every little modification and addition into account.
You start at the same time in boats that point the same upwind and downwind, they handle high winds and low winds the same, they handle smooth or rough water the same, if a boat is ahead of you they are beating you, if a boat is behind you, you are beating them, you know who to cover, who to ignore, no HC adjustments, no time keeping errors, no waiting on the PRO to calculate the finishes, the boat that finishes first wins, PERIOD. It doesn't get any better than that.

Are you saying it is better to have bigger boats drive over you, bigger boats handle the surf better, spi boats blanket you, higher pointing boats head you up, faster boats finishing before the wind dies, "light air" boats beating you on the light air days, "heavy air" boats beating you on the windy days, waiting for hours for the last boat to finish, and waiting for hours for the finishes to be posted. That doesn't sound like much fun.
Every body who wants to, should be allowed to and encouraged to race and HC racing is interesting and fun, but class racing is the best!!!
Even with class racing, when you are 45lbs over minimum weight, like me, you never win, but you have a good time.

Re: H16/H14 UPGRADES [Re: samevans] #14030
01/18/03 10:37 AM
01/18/03 10:37 AM
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 264
Neb
flounder Offline
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Neb
Well, like I said, I don't like "speed ratings" so I think we both agree that handicaping isn't the best way to do things. I think the weight is negligable on the outhaul and that an outhaul car is the the way to go.

As far as getting run over by other boats, that sounds like a respect issue. Some people cross the line and take racing too seriously and use poor judgement.

We also agree that in class racing the competitive boats are newer. This doesn't always happen in open class. In my experiance, regattas become more fun with more boats. In some areas of the world there are an abundance of one type.

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