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My rig changes. #146911
06/26/08 05:16 PM
06/26/08 05:16 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
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warbird Offline OP
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I have posted info about my attempts to create planing speed with my Tiger Shark.
I continue with that plan but have some questions about why the short sloop rig would run well up and down wind instead of just across it.
I have cut 6 feet of the mast and square topped the sail. These are rough old sails re-cut.
I went out with this boat against a good sailor on my very tidy H17 running a brand new pentax square top.
I beat the Hobie in varying conditions up, down and across the wind. The only time the Hobie had legs on me was in variable 5 knots up wind into rough chop and a 5 foot swell.
I was astonished to beat the Hobie up wind in ten knots with all that power up top against my sawn of shotgun mast, although I understand that the rake on the TS would help.
I was also astonished to beat it down wind because of that same rake and short mast.

I am asking if any other cat than the Hobie 16 is raking mast for a perceived power gain? If you know of one can you post a photo? Thanks

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Re: My rig changes. [Re: warbird] #146912
06/26/08 06:11 PM
06/26/08 06:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 531
Lake Murray SC
FasterDamnit Offline
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Let's start with basics-

Power to weight is the big game in cats if rigs are comparable. Isn't the Tiger Shark quite a bit lighter than the H17? Is the sq main on the H17 making up for the heavier platform?

Re: My rig changes. [Re: FasterDamnit] #146913
06/27/08 01:01 AM
06/27/08 01:01 AM
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Bay of Islands, NZ
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warbird Offline OP
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Quote
Let's start with basics-

Power to weight is the big game in cats if rigs are comparable. Isn't the Tiger Shark quite a bit lighter than the H17? Is the sq main on the H17 making up for the heavier platform?


Yes, the logic I have played with the T.S. is a light two man boat with less sail area managed by one person will be faster than the original two man version.

But the H17 is a good up wind boat and the sail area and height on the H17 dwarfs the T.S. so I am still surprised.

Re: My rig changes. [Re: warbird] #146914
06/27/08 05:03 AM
06/27/08 05:03 AM
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PeelSkid Offline
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You mention planing speed. I really don't understand that since I am a windsurfer and we actually do plan and that is where you get your speed. No plan = slog & Plan = fast.

How in the world can a Cat plan. The shape of the hull does not allow such a feat or the speed to plan would have to be like 100 mph.

Even a dirt bike can plan. I have seen these guys go in excess of 80 mph and plan on dirt bike knobby tires across water.

See this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=AnyTjURH-_I

Re: My rig changes. [Re: PeelSkid] #146915
06/27/08 06:10 AM
06/27/08 06:10 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
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I am thinking mast head kite <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

[Linked Image]


Re: My rig changes. [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #146916
06/27/08 07:05 AM
06/27/08 07:05 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 757
japan
erice Offline
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until you swap drivers so you are on the h17 and he is on the TC, i don't think it is telling you much

there is generally fare more variance in helming abilities than there is boat limits


eric e
1982 nacra 5.2 - 2158
2009 weta tri - 294
Re: My rig changes. [Re: PeelSkid] #146917
06/27/08 10:51 AM
06/27/08 10:51 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
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srm Offline
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Quote
How in the world can a Cat plan. The shape of the hull does not allow such a feat or the speed to plan would have to be like 100 mph.


If you look at the hulls of his boat, there is a hard chine with the bottoms being two flats that come down to a vee. So theoretically, it should have a better chance at planing than a traditional round-bottom boat (which, for all intents and purposes, won't plane). But it certainly would not be like the free planing that you're used to on a flat-bottomed windsurf board.

sm

Re: My rig changes. [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #146918
06/27/08 04:55 PM
06/27/08 04:55 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
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warbird Offline OP
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I am thinking mast head kite <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Of course I drew up the mast head reacher option! I have just purchased an 8.4 meter luff, 4.2 meter foot roller-furling 2.5 onze kevlar hooter from a skiff sailor. Great price and it looks to be perfect for mast head. He was a sail maker experimenting and kept the sail when he sold his skiff.
Not a spinny but I am going the Rick White hooter way.

This will be set up on a pole that breaks down just ahead of the jib foil. It will simply plug in and clip to the bows and tip to clip on the big sail. Nice to get rid of for high speed runs.

I do things on a budget and so want to try an idea before I commit to expense of purpose built sails. The sails here are the old pin top (25 years old at least) cut down to square top shortened as you can see to the hounds. The boom was shortened by about a foot and the roach has been cut back extensively. I have also chopped a foot off the mast base to lower the boom. The jib is an old Buffalo 14 fully battened as I was wondering if I wanted to go without barber-haulers and thinking through roller furling.
I have settled on roller furling jib with barber-haulers and Chip buck has designed the main and is making now and sending the new sails this coming week.

I have been building up carbon components including an A class mast and Tornado mast tube for beams. I figure I can cut out 20 kgs off the platform weight which stated out at 115 kgs with the longer mast.

These hulls have been hammered by big Kiwi brutes in crazy conditions and have many repairs. So I am also waiting for excellent hulls......unless I just design my own...but I like the retro, hot rod thing.


[Linked Image]

Last edited by warbird; 06/27/08 04:57 PM.
Re: My rig changes. [Re: erice] #146919
06/27/08 05:04 PM
06/27/08 05:04 PM
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Bay of Islands, NZ
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warbird Offline OP
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until you swap drivers so you are on the h17 and he is on the TC, i don't think it is telling you much

there is generally fare more variance in helming abilities than there is boat limits


Fair comment. All I can say is the guy sailing against me has raced cats a lot more than me in competition and we sailed boat to boat for four hours. The H17 is an idiot proof boat to sail, very much set, point and shoot. He should have had more than one five minute sloppy beat in which he was quicker. But, fair comment.

Re: My rig changes. [Re: warbird] #146920
06/27/08 05:11 PM
06/27/08 05:11 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 531
Lake Murray SC
FasterDamnit Offline
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115Kg??

That is only 254 lbs. If that is accurate that is a sizeable difference over the 340lb (prolly a bit more) H17.

And what is the current sail area, main + jib?

Old Hot Rods are cool!


Race cheap, race faster, Damnit!

E-Scow
24' ULDB

18HT hulls plus Gcat 5.7 rig = 18GT!
Re: My rig changes. [Re: FasterDamnit] #146921
06/27/08 09:22 PM
06/27/08 09:22 PM
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Bay of Islands, NZ
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warbird Offline OP
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I was shocked to be told the weight but I can feel no difference between pushing this around the beach and my Taipan 4.9 which is 105 kgs. on the same beach trolly. NZ foam core race boat. H17 is a little over a quarter heavier at 155 kgs and on the same trolly is a different category entirely!.
I will do the sail area when the new ones arrive.

Now a question for all, especially Rick if you read this. I have just hauled the new reacher up the mast and at mast head it wants a prod out the 1.400 mm from the bows. Is this too far. I was thinking more like a meter. Should I just suck the sweetie and see and cut it down if it does not work?

Re: My rig changes. [Re: FasterDamnit] #146922
06/28/08 12:21 PM
06/28/08 12:21 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Northfield Mn
My boat has really flat bottoms. I would think that you would want a shape that is similar, or even more flat than what these are.

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I'm boatless.
Re: My rig changes. [Re: Karl_Brogger] #146923
06/28/08 12:22 PM
06/28/08 12:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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This pics don't do it justice either I don't think.

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I'm boatless.
Re: My rig changes. [Re: Karl_Brogger] #146924
06/28/08 12:22 PM
06/28/08 12:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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I know, lots of scratches too.

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I'm boatless.
Re: My rig changes. [Re: warbird] #146925
06/28/08 11:06 PM
06/28/08 11:06 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 757
japan
erice Offline
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Quote
I have just hauled the new reacher up the mast and at mast head it wants a prod out the 1.400 mm from the bows. Is this too far. I was thinking more like a meter.


mate, i don't have the knowledge to answer your questions, in fact i generally struggle to understand the questions...

i think i can work out what a "reacher" is, and if i'm right on that i can hazard a guess at you mean by "prod" but when i get to "1.400mm" the number of variables becomes so great i just abandon the whole thing

surely you mean 1.4meters or 1,400mm?

as to comparing the tigercat to a hobie 17 have you compared race ratings, portsmith, texel etc?


eric e
1982 nacra 5.2 - 2158
2009 weta tri - 294
Re: My rig changes. [Re: erice] #146926
06/29/08 07:18 AM
06/29/08 07:18 AM
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 88
South Australia
Phile Offline
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I too am having trouble interpreting badly written kiwi English. Perhaps "prod" means "projection" as in the pole extends 1,400 mm beyond the bow?

Re: My rig changes. [Re: Phile] #146927
06/29/08 09:31 AM
06/29/08 09:31 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 531
Lake Murray SC
FasterDamnit Offline
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I am sure he means 1.4 meters beyond bow and prod=pole.


Try it at that length- as you go further out and change the angle of the luff away from vertical, you increase lift at the bows.


Race cheap, race faster, Damnit!

E-Scow
24' ULDB

18HT hulls plus Gcat 5.7 rig = 18GT!
Re: My rig changes. [Re: Phile] #146928
07/02/08 01:00 AM
07/02/08 01:00 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
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warbird Offline OP
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Quote
I too am having trouble interpreting badly written kiwi English. Perhaps "prod" means "projection" as in the pole extends 1,400 mm beyond the bow?


Anything off the back shelf for the man in the felt hat!
Yes, prod is the pole and yes it will extend 1.4 meters past the bows.
I am interested in just how far most poles do extend past bows.

Re: My rig changes. [Re: warbird] #146929
07/02/08 03:40 AM
07/02/08 03:40 AM
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You should checkout the F18/F16 class rules too see how faa they extend beyond the bow radius.

Re: My rig changes. [Re: Tony_F18] #146930
07/02/08 03:49 AM
07/02/08 03:49 AM

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F18 is 800mm. F16 is harder as its given as a pole length 3.5m, rather than a projection beyond the bows.


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