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Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: Wouter] #152599
08/19/08 04:13 PM
08/19/08 04:13 PM
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scooby_simon Offline
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Scooby,

I wasn't refering to the Viper but the Aussie Blade.

Wouter


OK, Sorry.


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Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: grob] #152600
08/19/08 07:23 PM
08/19/08 07:23 PM
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Port Noarlunga, SA, Australia
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Darryn Offline
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Would it be possible to make these bent tube stocks at home, if it is not a proprietary design does anyone have any good photos's of these stocks.

Gareth


Photo attached.

Thickness of rudder blade determines what size extrusion to use. My blades are 18mm.

I use 19.05mm OD Hollow square, 1.83mm wall thickness, corner radius 1.57mm. Alloy is 6060, T5 and can be purchased anodised.

A cardboard template is good for getting the bend angle correct.

Bottom gudgeon is a solid piece of aluminium cut to shape.

Modified Blade looks good, some interesting racing in Singapore.

Darryn
Mozzie
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Last edited by Darryn; 08/19/08 08:07 PM.
Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: Darryn] #152601
08/20/08 02:59 AM
08/20/08 02:59 AM
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Brighton, UK
grob Offline
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Darryn, Chris,

Thanks for the pictures and diagrams.

Gareth

Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: Darryn] #152602
08/20/08 03:51 AM
08/20/08 03:51 AM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Alloy is 6060, T5 and can be purchased anodised.



I can't speak for other nations around the world but the alloy 6060-T6 (a better version then 6060-T5) is quickly become THE standard alloy for any profiles. Bascially this means that when you go down to a local hardware shop overhere that the standard alu profiles are of this alloy. The older standards of 6063-T4 and T5 are being replaced and we are the better for it. 6060-T6 has a 0.2% yield stress of 160 MPa and get therefor stand up to 60% higher stresses before sustaining a permanent bend. This is good if your rudder stock takes some abuse from time to time but it also measn you have to excert more force to permanently bend it yourself. Just as a comparison steel typically has yield stress limits in teh range of 300-750 MPa. So it should not be too difficult to bend these alu profiles.

Often the standard sections are not anodised but unless your stock are permanently submerged in salt water they don't need to be either. Especially not for your first try. You'll get several years of surface out of these just the same.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: scooby_simon] #152603
08/20/08 07:59 AM
08/20/08 07:59 AM
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Posts: 322
South Australia
Marcus F16 Offline
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With respect to the McKenzies; I wonder why you guys never replaced them with the AHPC Carbon stocks (as delivered for the Taipan 4.9's) as they are very good indeed. The cast alu Viper Stocks are heavy in my opinion and present no real advantage over bend alu tube stocks that are significantly lighter. The guy building these is near to me (10 km away max) and I was surprised to hear his quotes on these. These bend tube stocks appear to be the best alternative to carbon stocks; both in weight and cost. Fellow F16 owners at my club have been using these for two years now and no issues with them. These stocks also allow the rudders to be rotated upwards by more then 180 degrees see picture.

[Linked Image]


Quote

I'm really looking forward to getting a chance to have a blade vs viper fight on the water. BTW, I had no idea that the Australian bade hull has more volume than the American made blade hull. Is that true?


Yes. however the more important difference is in the freeboard. The Aussie Blade hull has a higher freeboard and the bows themselves are taller as well. This while keeping largely the same overall appearance. I think the sterns are a little more narrow as well. Basically, the Aussie Blade is an evolution to the American Blade driven by the experience gained on the first model models (both timber homebuilds and series production). Ohh, before I forget the Aussie Blade has different beams as well; although these beams are offered to anyone wanting to use them.

Having said all this, when the two boats when head to head at both the 2007 and 2008 F16 global challenge the skippers sailing them were extremely close in performance. Although the comments were that the Aussie Blade handled the heavy seastate better under spi. Upwind was anyones game. Same with respect to the Viper F16 sailed by Greg in the later days. In direct comparison there was surprisingly little difference even when one boat handled certain conditions more comfortably then the other.

Personally I put this down to the engines (rigs) being so well limited by the class rules as to be identical in all intents and purposes. Of course at these events we only had sails made by proper and highly regarded sailmakers. Glaser, Ashby and Landenberger. The Aussie Blade was carrying a more experimental sail and I don't really know where to place that for lack of other data.

Wouter





Wouter

The Viper at the 2008 GC only just started one race.

Not sensible to use it's performance from 2008


Simon - I have to disagree with you there.

The Viper at Zandvoort was derived from well established Capricorn f18 platform & foils with the rig & sail plan taken from years of knowledge from AHPC's involvement with Tiapan 4.9's here in Aus.

The viper sailed 2 races at Zandvoort & was on the pace from the start as was expected.

Our Blade was hindered by the fact our mainsail had never seen a mast before the event & we paid the price. Hence a luff round alteration during the regatta in time for the long distance race. The change made us more competitive, but still room for improvement.


Marcus Towell

Formula Catamarans Aust Pty Ltd
Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: Marcus F16] #152604
08/21/08 05:51 AM
08/21/08 05:51 AM
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Posts: 81
singapore
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ckuang Offline OP
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talking about rigs and sails, was just wondering if there was any chance the F16 website could be updated with a list of available sail makers for the F16 class? So far my experience has been with Goodall sails, but i'm also really interested to find out the difference between all the sail makers.

Out of interest, does anyone run mixed set of sails? ie ashby main, goodall jib and GP spin, stuff like that? how do you guys find what the right comb is and tune your rigs for the different interactions between the different sails? Reason i'm asking is because i was thinking of experimenting with a kite that is flatter than the current goodall kite (i'm really happy with the current one, just want to experiment) and was wondering if you guys have any good sail makers for flat kites to recommend?

Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: ckuang] #152605
08/21/08 06:17 AM
08/21/08 06:17 AM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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I think we need some more volunteers to work the website for the class. The PR group has already made significant improvements especially with the multiple languages, but there can always be done more.

With respect to sails. I think a good number of F16 boats sail with mixed sails. Most often the jib and mainsail are of the same maker and the spi is of another. But I haven't been able to find recurring theme in these mixed setups. Most Ashby sails owners have a spi from another as Ashby is/was not yet comfortable with selling a spi of his own design. However, all sailmakers have gone through a period of F16 sail development and results from the past may not have any bearing on what can be expected from future purchases.

From personal experience, the Landenberger spinnaker appears rather flat and with a straight leech, much more then my 2003 Goodall spi.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: Wouter] #152606
08/21/08 06:31 AM
08/21/08 06:31 AM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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We love new contents for the website! Everything from creative writing to tech stuff like flat kites etc. Just get in touch with me or the PR group to have it published (Gary "twicebitten", MarkP, Gill, Kathleen).

For downwind work the spi is critical. I would be happy with any good "upwind" main while going downwind.
For upwind, I have had good results mixing different sails. The best jib we ever used on the Tornado was from Landenberger (normal luff length). This fitted well with our homemade/FCA main. The interactino between selftacking jib and mainsail is not critical (yet) in my opinion, unless you are optimizing your sails and rig for a special event with known weather conditions. Even then the best of the best make the wrong calls sometimes. Like going to China with special sails for light winds.. I guess what I am trying to say is that the performance gain available is so small that it is not worth investing time and money there unless you are very, very skilled in the full game.

Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #152607
08/21/08 06:52 AM
08/21/08 06:52 AM
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singapore
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ckuang Offline OP
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hey Rolf, let me see what i can do from the Singapore side. Maybe Scott M and I can start generating some articles etc for the site. If you want to PM me an address i'd be happy to send u a cd of some F16 sailing here in singapore. or perhaps if you have a ftp site or something.

I think short of an national association, this is what we in Singapore can do for the F16 association. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll be able to find anyone who wants to set up an association. In tightly legislated Singapore, there is a massive amount of protocol, paper work and accounting once an association is set up. I doubt the fees from a F16 association in singapore would even be able to pay the certified accountant for the annual reports.

But thanks so much for the info. I'll look into the landenberger kites

Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: ckuang] #152608
08/21/08 07:16 AM
08/21/08 07:16 AM
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
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I'm on my third F16 kite which is a Grant Piggott, the previous 2 being Ullman and Landenberger. As much as I like the Landy from my personal experience I find the GP faster. Now all I've got to do is learn to sail in the upright position as this is faster still <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> At present advertising space is best left on the tramp. Well that's what my friends tell me <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: Mark P] #152609
08/21/08 08:25 AM
08/21/08 08:25 AM
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scooby_simon Offline
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Mark,

I did wonder if that picture would appear....


I agree that the GP sails kite is quicker. When Grant and I were talking about building it we decided that flat would be faster overall (but harder to trim consistantly, but we decided that the trade-off was worth it). I'm still learning how it works properly and I think it will be very halyard tension critical. Too little in big winds and it does not set, too much in light stuff and the leach twists away and the luff will not set at all.

I'm still fiddling with Battens in my GP mainsail. More info when I have worked it out but so far I am sailing with a lot ofd tension in the top 4 battens to support the leach as the downhaul comes on.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

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Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: Mark P] #152610
08/21/08 09:21 AM
08/21/08 09:21 AM
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singapore
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ckuang Offline OP
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So everyone is voting for the GP kite? anyone have experience with the goodall spin vs the GP? it's kinda interesting that in last weekend's race, we were running a newer goodall kite that seemed a little flatter than the older goodall kites and the boat with the flatter seemed to go better downwind, so i was wondering what happens if i got an even flatter kite than my current goodall.
Wouter, what do you feel is the difference between the landeberger kite and the goodall kite? was the flatter kite faster for you?

Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: ckuang] #152611
08/21/08 12:37 PM
08/21/08 12:37 PM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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If you have money to burn, try contacting Gran Segel in Malmø - Sweden. They revolutionized the Tornado spis in 2002 when they supplied Martin and Kristian with their design before the worlds in Marthas Vineyard. The same spi have been the class standard since and did very well in China this year. They will be happy to make a F16 kite based on their Tornado and F18 experience. Contact Claes Hirseman at claes at gransegel.se and talk with him about your boat and what kind of conditions and sailing you do.

A flatter kite is faster becouse it have less drag, if we simplify a bit. On a boat like the Tornado and F16 which both have power to burn this makes them faster (in my opinion). But you will reach a point where the VMG dont increase anymore as you make the kite flatter (ref: the US teams kite in China). Kite design is not easy, there are a lot of variables there.

Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: ckuang] #152612
08/21/08 03:54 PM
08/21/08 03:54 PM
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Central Coast NSW Australia
TonyJ Offline
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I think short of an national association, this is what we in Singapore can do for the F16 association. Unfortunately, I don't think we'll be able to find anyone who wants to set up an association. In tightly legislated Singapore, there is a massive amount of protocol, paper work and accounting once an association is set up. I doubt the fees from a F16 association in singapore would even be able to pay the certified accountant for the annual reports.


That is also interesting info.
How do other sports, clubs, ect get around the red tape ?


Teach them how to think. Not what to think. Aus Blade 002
Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: TonyJ] #152613
08/21/08 08:12 PM
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ckuang Offline OP
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Tony, with regards to sports clubs/associations etc in Singapore, they either tend to be National associations ie Singapore Sailing, or if they are country club, sailing clubs etc, they tend to be registered as private companies. I know in Australia you guys have like the 16ft skiff club and lots of really small clubs and associations. it doesn't happen here. Oh yeah and many of these clubs that are registered as private companies require less red tape. Associations, ie in the case of F16 association here in Singapore, are supposed to be non profit and thus the government keeps a pretty close eye to make sure that is stays a non profit and the money is being used correctly etc. I was suggesting to the local F16 dealers here that our F16 association could be registered as a private company to bypass the red tape but i'm not sure how the international association would take to that.

Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: ckuang] #152614
08/22/08 02:04 AM
08/22/08 02:04 AM
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................ here that our F16 association could be registered as a private company to bypass the red tape but i'm not sure how the international association would take to that.


Have you asked?


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Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: ckuang] #152615
08/22/08 05:40 AM
08/22/08 05:40 AM
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Wouter Offline
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Wasn't there also some clause that allowed F16 sailors to become members of the international F16 organisation directly in such instances. I mean when very strickt local rules or insufficient local size of the fleet prevented the creation of the local organisation ?

Will be more difficult to arrange for a major F16 event in such a situation but at some point you have got to weight tho pro's against the con's.

This may also be a way around the issues.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #152616
08/22/08 07:17 AM
08/22/08 07:17 AM
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South Australia
Marcus F16 Offline
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If you have money to burn, try contacting Gran Segel in Malmø - Sweden. They revolutionized the Tornado spis in 2002 when they supplied Martin and Kristian with their design before the worlds in Marthas Vineyard. The same spi have been the class standard since and did very well in China this year. They will be happy to make a F16 kite based on their Tornado and F18 experience. Contact Claes Hirseman at claes at gransegel.se and talk with him about your boat and what kind of conditions and sailing you do.

A flatter kite is faster becouse it have less drag, if we simplify a bit. On a boat like the Tornado and F16 which both have power to burn this makes them faster (in my opinion). But you will reach a point where the VMG dont increase anymore as you make the kite flatter (ref: the US teams kite in China). Kite design is not easy, there are a lot of variables there.


I agree with you Rolf & believe one of the variables is having enough shape in the kite to start with....its a balancing act.

I also believe the gransegal kite are a smoother shape than most other T kites because they have many more panels in the luff of the sail.....hence controlling the shape better.

FYI - a aussie comparison of costs in 2004 was $2,200 for a gransegal kite & $1,350 for most other locally made kites. Big difference.


Marcus Towell

Formula Catamarans Aust Pty Ltd
Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: Marcus F16] #152617
08/22/08 12:44 PM
08/22/08 12:44 PM
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West coast of Norway
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Marcus,

I suppose that price was for a Tornado kite?

Next kites we do we will have to try something like that. More panels in the luff, glued construction (I'll never forget stitching the yellow spi! What a mess with seamstick in my Pfaff and not enought time before we had to leave for the regatta!), flatter shape, design the entry for about 45degs and add a bit of twist to the shape. With our three identical boats we should be in an ideeal position for testing the shapes. That is, when they are finished..

Re: Interesting Info to Share [Re: Wouter] #152618
08/25/08 09:43 AM
08/25/08 09:43 AM
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Quote

Both Agent Orange and the Hybrid use Taipan c/boards.



Actually, this dependents on how you define the Taipan boards.

I can't speak for agent orange, but the hybrid and other Blades delivered with the low aspect daggerboards all use a longer daggerboard then the Taipan but of the same general shape. It differs in some other details as well, but not enough to be obviously different.

And indeed congratulations to Ckuang !

Wouter


Ckuang had another great race on Sat. He and Scotty McCook were a long way ahead of the rest of the fleet, but managed to beat Scotty by a minute. Scotty is quick, and Kuang has only recently jumped from the A to the Viper. Good to watch the 2 sail downwind. Both had different techniques which was interesting to watch.

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