Announcements
New Discussions
Sail selection for DIY inflatable sailing catamaran
by almoniyot. 08/16/19 07:37 AM
Sail selection for DIY inflatable sailing catamaran
by almoniyot. 08/16/19 06:11 AM
‘81 SC17 trampoline track fix?
by tyronewarriner. 08/13/19 10:05 PM
New England 100 2019: 30th Anniversary!!!
by Damon Linkous. 08/13/19 04:57 PM
Old school
by northsea junkie. 08/10/19 03:14 PM
Fair Wind and Following Seas Dior Hubel
by cyberspeed. 08/08/19 11:12 PM
Let's see what we have here
by FrankyDub23. 08/08/19 06:49 PM
Shameless Self Promotion Post
by FrankyDub23. 08/08/19 06:41 PM
Looking a for a Hobie Wave! East Coast
by dave mosley. 08/07/19 03:11 PM
Length of Nacra 5.7 tiller crossbar
by JohannesM. 08/02/19 05:07 AM
Things to do and not to do flying a spin
by Timbo. 07/30/19 02:31 PM
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
F16 Crash course #156269
10/01/08 06:03 AM
10/01/08 06:03 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline OP
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline OP
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
I will be stepping onto a cat rigged F16 (Blade) for the first time this weekend <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> and looking forward to experiencing one up spinnaker racing and hopefully pick up a bit from the other F16 guys at the event.

Anyway, keen to here about the techniques used by the solo F16 guys when it comes to setting and dropping the kite as well as gybing. What sequances do you follow and how do you each steer when setting / dropping i.e. Where do you hold the tiller extension. Also techniques used for a clean fast gybe of the spinnaker.

Let the crash course begin <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


--Advertisement--
Re: F16 Crash course [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #156270
10/01/08 07:20 AM
10/01/08 07:20 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
F

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
Keep the boat upright. Uni, under spin, that's more difficult than you might think. Especially first time out.

Steer straight down wind when setting or retrieving the spin. That isn't the most efficient way to do it, but in the beginning, it's probably the only way to keep the boat upright.

Be prepared to go deep. If you're sailing the spin "hot", there is little time to react to a puff, you must anticipate.

Be sure to have a righting line and understand the righting procedure thoroughly.

Most importantly, have fun! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Re: F16 Crash course [Re: fin.] #156271
10/01/08 07:55 AM
10/01/08 07:55 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 539
taipanfc Offline
addict
taipanfc  Offline
addict

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 539
For hoisting and dropping the kite, used to stay on my knees near the back of the tramp facing forward and steer with my feet on the crossbar. Would drop the traveller down too.

For gybing, have both sheets in the one hand. Hard to explain, but I would hold it so the old sheet was easy to flick out and then you can pull through on the new sheet as you gybe. By using this technique I could keep the old sheet tight going into the gybe and I wouldn't have to pull too much for the new sheet. As you crossed over the tramp through the gybe you could easy change over hands too.

Probably confused you now.

Re: F16 Crash course [Re: taipanfc] #156272
10/01/08 08:11 AM
10/01/08 08:11 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline OP
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline OP
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Thanks mate. That is what I am after

Quote
For hoisting and dropping the kite, used to stay on my knees near the back of the tramp facing forward and steer with my feet on the crossbar. Would drop the traveller down too.


Very interesting. I was thinking about kneeling on the tramp facing sideways and sticking the tiller extension between my calf / hamstring. Will give your method a try as it will allow for stearing instead of just holding the tiller.

Quote
For gybing, have both sheets in the one hand. Hard to explain, but I would hold it so the old sheet was easy to flick out and then you can pull through on the new sheet as you gybe. By using this technique I could keep the old sheet tight going into the gybe and I wouldn't have to pull too much for the new sheet. As you crossed over the tramp through the gybe you could easy change over hands too.


Both sheets in one hand was what I was thinking, but good advice about having the old sheet possitioned to easily flick out. Better to learn from those who have already gone through the newbie process, then to slowly pick up things through trial and error.


Re: F16 Crash course [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #156273
10/01/08 08:37 AM
10/01/08 08:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,044
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,044
Sebring, Florida.
I don't steer at all when I hoist the spin solo. I drop the traveler all the way out coming around A mark, steer deep so the boat will go straight, then in a flurry of hands and elbows I get the spin up asap, 3-4 fast long pulls usually it's up, mark your halyard at the clete so you know when it's up, then I grab the tiller, steer up, pull up the traveler to about 1 foot out, grab the spin sheet, trim in and hold on, be ready to bear off quickly if it fills in a puff. I dump the mast rotator off and the downhaul off when I have time.

You MUST drive looking back over your shoulder for upcoming puffs when it's blowing and gusty, and you MUST start your bear off well before the puff hits you, so as it hits you can accelerate with the bows up, instead of trying to bear off in the puff and driving the bows under, which is slower, and swimming is slower yet.

Hopefully it will be light to medium air for your first solo ride, but if it's blowing, just dump the spin when things get crazy. You can pull the daggers up half way, that will help you bear off quicker without stuffing the bows under. If it's light to medium, you can sit well inboard to fly a hull, and just steer to keep it up.

For the take down, prepare for it well ahead of the C mark/gate, I just dump the sheet, then the halyard, ease the main and steer down a little more, maybe ease the traveler too, but haul in the snuff line ASAP, again, 3-4 big fast pulls, then set up for the rounding, boards down, downhaul on, rotator in, traveler up, main in, etc.

When it's blowing, I hook into my trap wire even if I have no intention of trapping, as if (when) you get thrown over the handlebars, you want to be attached to the boat. <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Last edited by Timbo; 10/01/08 09:04 AM.

Blade F16
#777
Re: F16 Crash course [Re: Timbo] #156274
10/01/08 10:27 AM
10/01/08 10:27 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
First, you will do some swimming...

As you know, the F16 is light and so you need to balance more carefully than a bigger heavier boat.


To start with; don't bother wiring down wind, there is enough to worry about.

Putting the kite up:

1, Dump some mainsheet and round the mark and head off, cleat the mainsheet.
2, some people also drop the traveller right out.
3, Either drop the tiller (if the boat will track on its own - this is why some drop the traveller); or kneel on the tramp and then put the tiller on top of your legs and then gently sit on it so you can steer
4, pull like feck to get the kite up!
5, Once up (Mark the place, or when you cannot pull any more) grab the spi sheet and get it driving; at the same time get the traveller back up and grab the tiller
6, Once driving, hook on (if enough wind) and go out.

Dropping techique is described here


As with the F18(I assume), you are travelling faster than true wind so you can

A, sail off the front of a gust and this can then catch you up / out as the wind dies, you head up to get drive and BANG, gust arrives
B, You do not look directly upwind for gusts, you look slightly over your shoulder as you can sail into them (I’ve even sailed into the back of a gust and that is most weird, but I do sail on a lake and so it’s a bit odd at times)
C, You will not get both sails right every time; how much mainsheet to let out is a bit of a black art, too much eased and you don’t have enough drive, the slot can get choked and you also risk breaking the mast (but F16 masts appear to be VERY robust); too little and the main is stalled and the slot it too open; it is possible to change mainsheet settings while flying the kite, but this DOES take practice and co-ordination.


If you start doing “round the cans” racing, it’s another game as then you have to also deal with being overpowered when making a mark, but we’ll leave that for another day.




Gybing:


1, Come in from the wire (if on it) and gather up what will become the new sheet; hold this in the same hand as the current sheet.
2, let out a "bit" of the current sheet as you start the gybe; I marked mine just where the clew will go around the forestay when the sheet it tight.
3, continue on a smooth arc and move across the tramp.
4, You now have to drop the tiller for a second having passed it around the back of the mainsail; it should land on the tramp by the back beam. Do't even try and check the mainsail over....
5, Pick up tiller
6, now this is the bit I do differently, I KEEP the tiller in the same hand as it was (so now I am facing across the boat looking outwards, I then let go of the old sheet and pull the new one in
7, change sheet hands and turn around.
8, get the kite driving and heading in the right direction
9, back out on the wire if it's the right thing to do.



I would suggest running thru all this in your mind first (while sitting / moving around the boat on the trolley). It forces you to think everything thru and make the right moves at the right time.


When people ask me what it's like, I usually say "busy" and with any boat, it's about staying one jump ahead of the developing situations, but as you are on your own, more situations develop, and they develop more quickly.


As others have said, best to try it all in light wind first!



Good luck and report back !!!!!


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: F16 Crash course [Re: scooby_simon] #156275
10/01/08 02:55 PM
10/01/08 02:55 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 549
Knokke-Heist - Belgium
Gilo Offline
addict
Gilo  Offline
addict

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 549
Knokke-Heist - Belgium
I also put the boat dead downwind with an eased main to pull the kite. Once up I trim the main and don't touch untill I drop the kite again. I find retrieving more difficult (boats starts to head up) then hoisting.

While going downwind I don't bother pulling the daggerboards up (but haven't raced in more then force 4).

I was used to double handed sailing and was steering to low in the beginning. Without a jib you can point a couple of degrees higher.

As Simon said, your weight is very important. 1 step to the front can make the boat lift and accelerate. Certainly downwind when you automatically have speed I had to think about it. Upwind it is more obvious to me.

What other boats will be out there?

Gill


Falcon F16 - BEL666
Boats: TheBoatShop.be
Stories: bladef16.blogspot.com
Re: F16 Crash course [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #156276
10/01/08 06:15 PM
10/01/08 06:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 951
Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
ncik Offline
old hand
ncik  Offline
old hand

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 951
Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
Pull in some retrieval line before dumping the halyard at the drop, don't want it falling in the water. Set and drop as close to downwind as possible. Leave the tiller extension on the tramp and set or drop quickly, if you're setup properly there shouldn't be enough time for the boat to get off-course.

I sailed solo last weekend and it was a blast, but very tiring. 10-15 knots and sitting in a little and was still wild-thinging at a slightly higher angle than a 16' skiff. Any lower was dead slow. Was flying past Hobie 16's and Taipan unis downwind. Just watch out when overtaking, you'll have to bear away a lot in gusts.

As with all sailing, thinking ahead is very important.

Re: F16 Crash course [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #156277
10/01/08 09:25 PM
10/01/08 09:25 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
Darryl_Barrett Offline
old hand
Darryl_Barrett  Offline
old hand

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
Just go out there and sail to have fun!
You have enough experience to souse it all out fairly well in the shortest period of time.
I think you have experienced most of everything before that you need on other cats the only difference now is that there is no crew to yell at if it all goes pear shape (also means that when you do well there is no one else to "steal" part of your credit)
Enjoy!

Re: F16 Crash course [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #156278
10/02/08 03:28 AM
10/02/08 03:28 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Personally, I throw the tiller over the back of the boat and let it drag there when singlehanding under spinnaker.

I steer by the tillers. When setting or douching I leave the mainsail where it is required to be for after the set/douce and I steer downwind and do the spi handling in the time that the boat needs to round up to the proper course. Basically, I do my stuff while the boat is rounding up on its own. That is a couple of seconds and when done right you are ready to go right after the set/douce.

When setting the flapping spi balances the boat and a filled spi introduced lee helm so it bears off again. I make use of this feature to stop the boat from rounding off to far. So in my case the whol trick is to point the boat downwind then use 3 or 4 seconds to get the spi up just in time to balance the boat before it rounds up to far. Doucing is almost the exact reverse. I come in hot , let go of the tiller to boat bears away while I put my knee on the spi sheet and pull in the excess of retrieval line and then let go of the sheet and spi cleat and pull the spi in the bag within 3 to 4 seconds while the boat rounds up on me. The boat circles around the bouy and right before I reach beam reach I move up maybe work the main while still steering by the tillers. When the boat is on the new upwind course I grap the tiller extension and go out pulling the main tight in with me. This seems to work well for me in getting out tight at the bottom mark, something alot of boats don't do.

The secret to dry 1-up F16 sailing is to have your procedures work-out very well and be very well trained in them. After a while you'll notice that 1-up spi sailing is not that difficult at all.

Personally I ignore the mainsail under spi and have it gybe on its own. I use the landyachting advice here : always keep lots of speed and the main will gybe as easy as a weathervane on it own. Concentrate fully on that spinnaker and having it gybe smoothly and fill quickly, thus keeping speed up.

Best of luck Stephen. And I wish you the best experience 1-upping a F16. When you do it right it is a hoot !


And I agree with the others, everything happens sooner and quicker in this setup. So try to bear away a little BEFORE the gust hits and head up again before the guts leaves as well. At first this is like riding the edge, but it is the only way to do and be quick. Think of it as training to get better at this on a larger more forgiving boat as well. Because that will be one of the effects of lots of solo training on a F16. You'll sharpen your senses and reflexes.

Best of Enjoyment !

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: F16 Crash course [Re: scooby_simon] #156279
10/02/08 04:05 AM
10/02/08 04:05 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline OP
Pooh-Bah
Tornado_ALIVE  Offline OP
Pooh-Bah

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Quote
If you start doing “round the cans” racing, it’s another game as then you have to also deal with being overpowered when making a mark, but we’ll leave that for another day.


Should be a breeze..... 12 races up against Gary, Goodalls and about 18 F18s as well as a mixed fleet. Should be easily in excess of 100 boats.

Forecast so far.

Saturday Outlook: Wind: N/NW 20/30 knots, turning NE/SE 10/20 knots in the south.
Sunday Outlook: Wind: NW/NE 10/20 knots, reaching 20/30 knots in the north.

<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'll be taking it very easy as it is not my boat. If it is too much, I'll wait for better breeze.

I'll be just familurising myself with the F16 this weekend.


Re: F16 Crash course [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #156280
10/02/08 04:20 AM
10/02/08 04:20 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Make sure you get photos!! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Good luck with the event. Take care!

Re: F16 Crash course [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #156281
10/02/08 04:57 AM
10/02/08 04:57 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,447
P
phill Offline

veteran
phill  Offline

veteran
P

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,447
Quote
Let the crash course begin <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


NO! NO! NO!

No Crash!
<img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: F16 Crash course [Re: phill] #156282
10/02/08 05:52 AM
10/02/08 05:52 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 94
australia
S
self_inflicted Offline
journeyman
self_inflicted  Offline
journeyman
S

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 94
australia
Hi Steve
Just sail it like you STOLE it,and remember it's not your boat.So if you brake just take it back it,and tell the owner.You where winning up until the accident.That will make it easier to swollow when you tell him the mast is in 2 bits.
They are very forgiving BUT when they bite They do bite HARD

Last edited by self_inflicted; 10/02/08 05:55 AM.
Re: F16 Crash course [Re: self_inflicted] #156283
10/02/08 05:56 AM
10/02/08 05:56 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 94
australia
S
self_inflicted Offline
journeyman
self_inflicted  Offline
journeyman
S

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 94
australia
I forgot to add everytime he does lend a boat the main some how gets damaged or the boat does swim,So you do have a reputation to live up too
NOW I'M really going to upset the owner

Re: F16 Crash course [Re: phill] #156284
10/02/08 07:23 AM
10/02/08 07:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,044
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,044
Sebring, Florida.
It must be Phill's boat! <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

If the wind is up around 20-30, you will want to pull the boards up a bit going upwind to keep the hull from flying up too high, drop the traveler a little too, de-rotate the mast for less power, max downhaul, etc.

Going downwind in 20, pull the boards way up, and drive it deep. I have found when I try to go downwind on one hull in that much wind I usually stuff it to the mast and flip, so now I drive deep on two hulls and ease the spinny when the big gusts come. Try to keep your weight as far back as possible and keep the bows up.

I have found swimming to be slower than a flogging spin in a big gust. It's going to be fun in a gybe in that kind of wind! Just let the spin go and worry about it after you have got the main across. Staying upright is more important than a clean spin gybe. Good luck!

Last edited by Timbo; 10/02/08 07:25 AM.

Blade F16
#777
Re: F16 Crash course [Re: Timbo] #156285
10/02/08 05:57 PM
10/02/08 05:57 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
FL
sail7seas Offline
addict
sail7seas  Offline
addict

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
FL
I found going dead downwind wind and 3-5ft waves, the spin popped out of the bag into the bow and went shrimping.
Beach debrief said, use a little heat so spin goes to side of boat.
I went shrimping on take down to, so I will head up slightly, so spin goes over side of bow.
I think wave action caused this, as I have never had a problem on flat water going dead downwind.

Re: F16 Crash course [Re: sail7seas] #156286
10/03/08 09:08 AM
10/03/08 09:08 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
Sounds like you were going about the same speed as the wind when you popped the spin out, and it had nothing to fill with, causing the shrimping.

I suspect this happened in lighter air?

Yes, slightly off ddw (dead downwind) would prevent this to a large extent. But yanking that thing up as fast as possible would too.


Jay

Re: F16 Crash course [Re: waterbug_wpb] #156287
10/03/08 05:30 PM
10/03/08 05:30 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
FL
sail7seas Offline
addict
sail7seas  Offline
addict

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
FL
...3-5ft waves, blowing 10-15.

Re: F16 Crash course [Re: sail7seas] #156288
10/04/08 12:00 PM
10/04/08 12:00 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
How did Steve do on his NO-CRASH mission? <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Damon Linkous, phill, Rolf_Nilsen 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 28 guests, and 330 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Bagol, almoniyot, FractionalSloop, Espen, FrankyDub23
7949 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Timbo 3
brucat 2
JeffS 1
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,362
Posts266,916
Members7,949
Most Online795
Apr 8th, 2019
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1