Robi, that's a pretty fair representation of the beginning of the situation, but we were further out from the finish line. As we got closer, he caught up and had an overlap as we approached the finish line.

So, now I am confused because we have heard you can take another boat above the finish line as long as you go yourself (only a good idea if team racing) and also you must give "room to round" to the inside boat. So, which is it?

And as far as proper course, in shifty lake winds, is there such a thing? Several times I was coming into A mark on what I was sure was the layline, only to get headded and have to tack twice to get there.

So on other occasions when I would get a lift coming into A, I would ride it high of the layline, expecting another headder before I got there. Same applies with the finish line. If we had got a signifcant headder before the finish, he might have laid the line, I would have had to tack to get up to it, so any time you are sailing below close hauled going upwind, you are risking that...so what is proper course?

If he caught up within two boat lengths out to your side, you had full luffing rights, and could take him head to wind, if outside two lengths you would be limited to proper course, but I think it's based on the current wind, not a future wind. But I'm not sure, if you really think that you will finish faster sailing higher the the mark planning on a header, and would do it anyhow if the other boat wasn't there, he might just have to suck it up as windward boat and take your stern, as long as your not right at the mark and trying to go around by yourself.

Robi & Timbo,

Please read Matt Bounds' explaination .... he and I have agreed on the rules that pertain to this scenerio ....

1) it's "VERY" important on "HOW" the overlap was established.

2) let's devide/split the scenerio in two parts: sailing to windward and then, Upon reaching the two boatlength circle at the Mark/Pin still overlapped.

Sailing to windward with the "windward boat" establishing a overlap on a leeward boat: the leeward boat is allowed to luff or pinch-up at the leewards pleasure as long as they give the windward boat time and opportunite to "keep clear" (secA/rule 11)

If upon reaching the two boat length circle at the mark and the windward boat still has a overlap (effectively an inside overlap) the leeward boat must give/leave enough room for the windward boat to clear the mark.

This is what you did Timbo which was correct as you did not luff-up the overlapped windward boat prior to reaching the two boat length circle.

Now for educational purposes let's look at the scenerio if the "Leeward boat" had established the overlapp from clear astern instead. The leeward boat can not sail avove her "proper course" while overlapped to the windward boat unless the leeward boat breaks the overlap by being "clear ahead".

So this means that the leeward boat can sail a course "laying the pin" BUT no higher. So the two overlapped boats sail side by side up to the pin, upon reaching the two boat length circle the windward boat has an inside overlap and calls for room, which the leeward boat is obligated to give ... now if the leeward boat can "punch through" and get "Clear Ahead" they are then free to sail any course they wish including sailing above a "proper course"

Now the (once) leeward boat will have turned the tables and will be able to ask for room if the (once) windward boat is able to re-establish an overlap but now she is the leeward boat and will need to allow room at the mark

So, it's all goes back to how the overlap was established ... that determines which rules apply.

And this is why earlier I stated that you MUST/SHOULD defend BEFORE reaching the two boat circle around the mark as the rights flip-flop at that point.

Robi, if I may have a little fun at your expense ... while "Hobies" are not the fastest beach cats out there, there are alot of very talented and exceptionally good sailors racing in the Hobie Points Regattas (and I'm not one of them but Matt Bounds is ... also thats where Robbie Daniels got started racing Beach Cats)... so,if you compete against them, they will make you learn the rules ... or you will be spending alot of time doing "360" circles

Timbo, thanks for asking the question and making me revue the rules ... I still remember "mast abeam", HAhahaha

Sail Fast, Sail Fast, Sail Safe
Harry Murphey
TheMightyHobie18/#9458, Fleet54/Div11
P19MX/#86, CRAC

I stand corrected and thanks for the explanation folks.

Robi,

When I ever get to Florida for a race would you be so kind to come by my "campfire" and have a "beverage" from my cooler ... I would be honored

Harry

This is almost 100% right, but this also may be a difference in terms used....

In the UK, the Pin end is the Far end on the line (so away from the CTB);

The leeward boat can sail any course up to laying the CTB end of the line; given the "slight overstand" situation, this might be slightly below closehauled. Essentially, they need to make it clear that they are not sailing above the layline. Remember; they ARE alowed to take into account TIDE and so they may be actually be sailing above the direct angle to the CTB to ensure the course they make is to the line.

The leeward boat can CHOOSE which bit of the line they want to cross, but cannot go above the course (including tide) to cross the line at the CTB and leave enough room For the boat(s) to windward to cross.

Thanks for all the great explanations.

To explain why/where the Committee boat was on the finish line; we would have the boat on the right end, even in America, but because we had 4 separate fleets starting/finishing, and a shortage of committee boat volunteers, what we normally do is anchor the boat once and leave it there, put the start line ball off to the left (looking upwind) and the finish line ball off to the right of the anchored boat. That way, you can be running a start sequence on the left side of the boat for one fleet while another fleet is finishing on the right side of the boat.

This is also why they keep the start-finish lines closed, which makes for quite a large -no sail- area in the middle of the course, where the best wind is... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Which is why the best place for the start / finish line is below the gate . . . completely off the race course . . . but that's a whole different thread.

Bingo... <img src="http://www.catsailor.com/forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Slight change if I may.

How do you handle someone who is barging? I will bet the must often given "advice" is that you can drive them into the committee boat.

I doubt if that is legal. Further, I doubt a committee would uphold it.

So what to do? Both legally and as a practical matter.

I think that would merrit another thread. Good question.

You start. I'm particularly interested in how you feel that should be handled. Personally, I think boarding hooks and cutalsses are in order, but that's pro'ly not in the rules.

My take on it, dont drive them into the RC boat, leave them a way out. If they have passed the point of no return, give them room (call "No room" first, well ahead) and protest them. Prudent RCs dont use the boat but a mark to define the line, so the bargers have a way to espace if they need it. This is just a game, so even if somebody plays the game poorly or even stupidly, there is no need to cause injuries on sailors or equipment.

What if there is no way to give them room? What if you are being taken up in a long line of leeward boats who are all taking each other up? You cannot bear off and are the next boat to the committee boat, you have to come up or hit someone below you. It's a chain reaction and sometimes you cannot give the guy above you any room. He has to see it developing and bail out via a tack away from the com. boat, circle around and then start in the back row.

He doesn't get to bear off and hit you, and then claim you didn't give him room to keep clear, because you cannot bear off without hitting the guy below you. That is why I don't like to start right at the com. boat in a crowded agressive fleet. You will get hosed!

Man, you guys are soft.

Two pages already and nobody gave Tim crap for calling this guy "cute" and drinking beer with him?

The same thing applies at mark roundings. Chain reaction protests. If you couldn't give the inside guy room without hitting someone above you, you must protest the guy that prevented you from coming up in order to keep yourself from being subject to a protest from the guy under you that had to hump the mark.

You guys are making it too complicated.

Inside boats are owed room at finishing marks. You can't use the finishing mark or boat as a pick. You murdered that last tack and got beat - live with it.

But do you have to be soooooo mean about it?