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Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control! #157316
10/16/08 04:17 PM
10/16/08 04:17 PM
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Newport, RI
wildtsail Offline OP
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I hate to break bad news again but I am really getting frustrated by how Performance Catamarans is coming up with their pricing. While all this pricing is in regard to the Nacra 20 there must be parts that are affecting F17s, F18s, and etc. It's not just the 200% increase in the masts.. it's all across the product line.
I have 3 instances in which I went to make large purchases at one point in the year, held off on the purchase, went back to make the purchase at a later date to find out the price had jumped by several hundred dollars.
In all circumstances I contacted 2-3 dealers to confirm this pricing. Each quoted me a price and then contacted me later to let me know that a new pricelist had just come out to make the item even more.

-New jib) I purchased a new jib in May for approximately $570. It has now jumped up to over $800.

-New spinnaker) I was quoted $1,050 in May. I ended up purchasing it in August when the price ended up being close to $1,500.

-Self tacker) I am in the process of purchasing a new self tacker. I have been told numerous prices. One price was $399 with the line kit at $118. The next day I was contacted and told the new pricelist said $530 with the line kit at $420.
This is completely ridiculous! Working in the industry, I could piece together this line kit for $100-$150 and sell it for $200-$250. $420 is completely unjustified unless it is gold plated blocks!

-New mast) I'm not purchasing one, but you all know about the recent price of around $11,000 when it was $5,600 in May.

I work for a sailboat dealer which is owned by and adjacent to the manufacturer. We and all of our dealers get price increases at the beginning of the year and that's it. 4-5 times over the course of several months is ludicrous. And itís not like they are sending them lists with the outlines changed! They are sending them many pages of pricing and the dealer is on their own to figure out what has changed. There is no way Performance should expect their dealers to be able to function with this happening. It is unfair to the dealers and the customers.

I am in no way blaming the dealers. They are just trying to make a living. Apparently the dealers have been complaining to Performance with no results.

I am blaming Performance Catamarans for this. If anyone out there can justify any of these price increases please explain to me on this forum or private message me.

If we want any change or the prices to stop inflating we need to do something about this!

That being said, I donít believe going our own route and leaving the factory out of class decisions is the correct path as without factory support the class would suffer tremendously.

Does anyone else have experience with a pricing fiasco? Please share and maybe we can bring it to the attention of Performance Catamarans.


-Todd Riccardi

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control! [Re: wildtsail] #157318
10/16/08 04:40 PM
10/16/08 04:40 PM
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St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
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I totally agree with you, that is ridiculous. Time for you to purchase that F18 Capricorn from Fun in the Sun.

Ive read over and over again the complaints about Perf Cats etc. What I dont understand is why purchase from them? Perf Cats is no one without its clientele, so if you folks looked elsewhere for your parts they will eventually have to do something about it, oh but I forgot, you are purchasing parts for a N20 which in turn is SMOD huh? I honestly think the Tybee500 is the only race that is keeping this class going. Once the Tybee migrates to F18 the DBS will welcome the N20 into its ranks.

Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control! [Re: Robi] #157321
10/16/08 04:51 PM
10/16/08 04:51 PM
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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"Once the Tybee migrates to F18 the DBS will welcome the N20 into its ranks."

One needs to finish it first.


Looks like the time may be quickly approaching for a Formula N-20 class. The pricing is definitely ludicrous and the only thing worse is the wait.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control! [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #157328
10/16/08 05:34 PM
10/16/08 05:34 PM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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When I replaced my spin earlier this year, it was nowhere near that much. Also, I don't know about that jib price either.

Secondly, I think there's a movement underway to try and kill the N20 class by Nacra. I'm guessing they all want us sailing F18's which is a shame since I wouldn't be able to sail an F18 without a pet midget on board as crew.

Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control! [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #157330
10/16/08 05:42 PM
10/16/08 05:42 PM
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UK
Cheshirecatman Offline
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Quote

Looks like the time may be quickly approaching for a Formula N-20 class.


Am I missing something here? Isn't it an iF20 boat anyway? Sail it as such and save a bundle.

Cheshirecatman

Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control! [Re: Cheshirecatman] #157333
10/16/08 06:05 PM
10/16/08 06:05 PM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Nope. It doesn't fit in the F20 box rule.

Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control! [Re: wildtsail] #157334
10/16/08 06:14 PM
10/16/08 06:14 PM
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Michigan
PTP Offline
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Those sail prices are steep, IMO. SMOD can do that to you and you just have to eat it right? Same reason anti-trust laws were created.

Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control! [Re: Cheshirecatman] #157336
10/16/08 06:17 PM
10/16/08 06:17 PM
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Newport, RI
wildtsail Offline OP
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So I got over my initial discontent after hearing the prices of the self tacker and gave Jack Young a call. I told him about this thread and that I did not start it to attack P.C. but to hopefully give them constructive criticism.
The main point I expressed to him is that they need to get these prices under control and keep everyone in the loop as to why these prices are where they are.
He told me that times are tough with gas prices and that they are not selling as many units as the old days (especially when it comes to the 20 class). But at the same time he agreed the prices were high and told me that many prices are out of whack and will hopefully be corrected out soon.
We discussed the mast issue some but in order not to spread any rumors, all I want to say is that he said they are actually working on it and want the mast to be cheaper just as much as we do. He said he does not post here because of all the false rumors that get started. I told him he needs to address the classes and keep them informed on what is going on.

Tad, when did you buy your sails? I bought my jib in May and spinnaker in August at NA's. I was quoted similar prices by 3 dealers.

Can we not turn this into a dead boat discussion? That will kill any sort of productivity.

The 20 is not a F20 it is a Nacra 20, a one design class with one design sails. Jack and others have told me their concern with making it a 20 is the class cannot survive an arms race. The same happened with the P19 and N6.0. There's not the healthy competition like the F18 between manufacturers. There are also no sailmakers who have developed sails for the 20 that would be competitive so we would end up paying more in development.

Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control! [Re: wildtsail] #157337
10/16/08 06:19 PM
10/16/08 06:19 PM
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Posts: 756
Newport, RI
wildtsail Offline OP
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We currently do have to just eat the costs... but if it becomes outrageous.. which it has... we need to let them know when we aren't willing to pay anymore. Personally i'm not willing to pay much more! What happens next year?
These aren't gas prices where we have little say in the matter, we should be able to affect the class and the manufacturer.

Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control! [Re: wildtsail] #157339
10/16/08 06:26 PM
10/16/08 06:26 PM
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Michigan
PTP Offline
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time to start having non "class legal" sailmakers get in on the game so the boats can have a life after SMOD.
Not calling the class dead... just seems people are reaching a breaking point with the boat.
I think there is always going to be a market for a 20 footer, but not a huge one. They will inherently be more expensive than smaller boats - more so without competition between manufacturers.

Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control! [Re: ThunderMuffin] #157340
10/16/08 06:28 PM
10/16/08 06:28 PM
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UK
Cheshirecatman Offline
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Originally Posted by Undecided
Nope. It doesn't fit in the F20 box rule.

The Inter 20 was introduced as an if20 boat. Is it just the oversize main(iF20=18sq m) takes the Nacra 20 one design outside the rule?

Cheshirecatman

Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control! [Re: Cheshirecatman] #157358
10/16/08 08:13 PM
10/16/08 08:13 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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I believe that is it. Not sure on weight, but I can't imagine it would be under any minimum.
My thought on the Formula Inter 20 class would be , allow aluminum masts if wanted and open up the sails to any maker.Platform stays the same with the exception of extrusions (Spin pole and boom) which you get killed on the price and then again for the shipping.Obviously you'd need guidelines.
I have talked to Jack about the costs and he had reasons but didn't seem to have any solutions.
And Tad those prices are correct, I was quoted that high and higher.
INTER -20 MAIN 1 1,754.14
I-20 BATTENED JIB 1 705.79
INTER -20 FURLING JIB 1 662.11
N-20 (3 HOLE) SPINNAKER - MIDPOLE 1 1,435.61
SPINNAKER I-20 2 HOLE - ENDPOLE 1 1,356.41
Note how expensive that extra grommet on the spin is.I was also told I should count on a 3 month lead time, because the focus is on sending stuff to Europe.

I LOVE the boat,as most of you know, and am a diehard supporter of it. But this mess is hard to take.
I think some discussion on this, from those it pertains to(i.e. I-20 owners), would be good.
Todd
p.s. Tad I'm midgetless myself. Plus I like the extra 2 feet.



"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control! [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #157360
10/16/08 08:21 PM
10/16/08 08:21 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 756
Newport, RI
wildtsail Offline OP
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Todd,
As I stated previously, I am afraid that opening it up might hurt the class.
Your absolutely right about the 20 owners needing to have a discussion on this.
The question is when and where? We haven't had any regattas with a majority of the class in attendance.
Could we set up something online? A private thread even with posters being approved by moderator?
Maybe if we pool our resources we can offer PC some options.

The other Todd


Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control! [Re: wildtsail] #157362
10/16/08 08:28 PM
10/16/08 08:28 PM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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well, as far as the gas prices are concerned, oil dropped below $70/barrel today so we might be seeing some relief there...

I bought my new main and spin after my disasterous debacle and nightmare that was Tradewinds 2007. Purchased 6 weeks prior to Spring Fever and I had to get the main drop shipped to Nigel's house so I had it for the regatta :P

Quote
The question is when and where? We haven't had any regattas with a majority of the class in attendance.


Not only that, but the class association is non-existent as far as I can tell. I don't know who to even send money to or who to contact about concerns with the class. AFAIK Jack is our class president.

Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control! [Re: wildtsail] #157366
10/16/08 09:28 PM
10/16/08 09:28 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,222
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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As it stands around here, mid-east, there's really no class to speak of. Sometimes enough boats show to make a class. I don't see how opening it could hurt the "class" as long as parameters are laid out to keep it from becoming an arms race. Opening the sail to different makers would increase quality and lower the price.If you weren't comfortable with another sailmaker you use Skips i.e. the factory sail. Size stays the same.No carbon added anywhere it all ready isn't.No performance enhancing mods.
As it is we have 2 self tackers,2 booms, 3 styles of rudders, sails of many dimensions,3 spin pole combos,2 different style jibs,and 2 different style tramps,off the top of my head. We aren't exactly a one design even though we are.
This isn't necessarily something I want to do but seems it may be the only way to make it affordable/viable which would keep the class going instead of kill it.
I don't see PC lowering their prices ever, even if they could. If the peeps is buyin' why drop the price. For them it's good business,For us it's called a rock and a hard place.
Todd


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control! [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #157371
10/16/08 09:38 PM
10/16/08 09:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Quote
If the peeps is buyin' why drop the price.


See Todd, I don't think that boats are an inelastic commodity. People aren't going to dish out $25k for a Nacra 20 when they can get an infusion for almost half that.

Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control! [Re: PTP] #157394
10/17/08 03:15 AM
10/17/08 03:15 AM
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Catfan Offline
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I suspect that the reason behind prices' escalation of P.C. is the marketing strategy choosen by the new owner, the European company Nacra Europe (ex Jan de Boer), intended to make even the listing on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean.
Notwithstanding the huge devaluation of the USD vs EUR exchange rate the quotations of Nacra cats in Europe have not
changed: the cheapest boat, the 460, is sold at EUR 8,950 (around EUR 7,600 ex VAT or USD 10,000), while the most expensive N20 is sold at EUR 21,480 (EUR 18,300 ex VAT or USD 24,500). As you see they are not far from the above mentioned US quotations

Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control! [Re: ThunderMuffin] #157396
10/17/08 03:51 AM
10/17/08 03:51 AM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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I could just be that the I-20 market in Europe dried up. Nacra stepped out of the F20 class to form their own I-20 strickt SMOD class. I'm still not convinced this move was a wise one on their part. It killed the Hobie Fox which is probably a thing they thought advantagious (although the Fox was already very much on its knees) but from then onwards they had to support the class and market on their own. The French are not at all interested in 20 footers. The Germans never took to the F20 as other EU nations unlike UK and Netherlands. However both these nations are indeed gravitating strongly to F18; have been doing so for years. Especially after the F18 Worlds in NL a few years back. One can buy I-20's overhere secondhand for very attractive prices. Lots on offer only few takers; I doubt many new boats are sold. I think the US market has contracted for them as well.

All in all this may all just be a market development coming back to bite them.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control! [Re: wildtsail] #157397
10/17/08 03:55 AM
10/17/08 03:55 AM
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
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I always love it when the thread of an "arms race" and ludicrously rising SMOD prices are placed next to one another in one sentence.

Isn't it the whole idea of preventing an arms race (SMOD ?) to keep prices low ? How come that classes like a A's, 18HT's and F16's can put carbon masts on their platforms for 3000 and the SMOD for only 11.000 ?

In this situation what the hell is the advantage of a SMOD status ? I mean, to the sailor and class member of course. The advantage to the builder is obvious enough.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Performance Catamarans pricing... out of control! [Re: Wouter] #157413
10/17/08 07:53 AM
10/17/08 07:53 AM
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Posts: 1,226
Atlanta
bvining Offline
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Quote
How come that classes like a A's, 18HT's and F16's can put carbon masts on their platforms for 3000 and the SMOD for only 11.000 ?


Carbon has increased somewhat, the issue is also that the exchange rate has gone the wrong way for the US sailors, so any carbon part gets whacked twice if its made outside the US.

You could easily make a 120 mast for $3k in the US, Forte has a Tornado teardrop mast mold and his price last year was $1100 for a 33 ft section. So even with inflation on carbon, I'm guessing the price is around $2k for a bare tube, no fittings.


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