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uni vs sloop #158202
10/24/08 07:55 PM
10/24/08 07:55 PM
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Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline OP
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Just a curiosity question. If you were to start a regatta with crew, would you be able to finish with out crew? Assuming you removed the jib of course.


I'm boatless.
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Re: uni vs sloop [Re: Karl_Brogger] #158214
10/25/08 02:39 AM
10/25/08 02:39 AM
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Wouter Offline
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I think it is in general considered good taste to finish as you started. HOWEVER, in the past crews have notified the RC in advance of the racing and asked permission to switch setup during the race-days because one of the crew was unable to attent on some given day. I remember this being put to the other contestants and being accepted by them. Of couse the general feeling is that for alot of races the importance of the event it too low to bar someone from racing, we'd rather have a larger fleet. Afterall, racing succesfully both singlehanded and doublehanded requires additional skills and is therefor not an easy route to victory.

I do think that switching role depending on the expected weather of each race or each race day is frowned upon; considered to be unsportmanslike.

Still, this has happened to with the acceptance of the fleet at one of the Gulfport events. I believe a second day was so windy/gusty that some singlehanded crews hooked up together as a 2-up crews for that day only. I remember it was decided to score these crews seperately from the 1-up setups involving the same persons, This resulting in DNC for at least part of the races and thus making this move totally irrelevant for the top places of the fleet. It did allow these 1-up crews to maximally enjoy the event and participate which I think is a very good thing. Afterall these crews travelled and piad good expense to be there and it is only fair to have them participate in any and every race.


Of course, in all setups the jib must be removed (or may be added when goin 1-up -> 2-up). For each single race the boat MUST be fully F16 compliant.

And of course the mid race switching is put to the fleet which may accept it or not. I don't think the fleet has ever barred this, but then again no requests for such a thing has ever been made for say an alter cup qualifier or F16 Global Challenge !

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: uni vs sloop [Re: Wouter] #158222
10/25/08 09:47 AM
10/25/08 09:47 AM
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Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline OP
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My girlfriend and I were talking, and I was telling her that the boat can be raced in both configurations with out penalty. She was wondering if the weather turned poor, but racing continued, would the crew be able to stay on shore if the skipper still wanted to race.

Re: uni vs sloop [Re: Karl_Brogger] #158229
10/25/08 10:26 AM
10/25/08 10:26 AM
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fin. Offline
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Dunno, but I vote yes. Gotta keep the ladies happy. I you dropped her in light air, someone might object. But if it's blowing and nasty you'd probably be fine.

Re: uni vs sloop [Re: Karl_Brogger] #158232
10/25/08 11:31 AM
10/25/08 11:31 AM
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Wouter Offline
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In the end it all comes down to the rest of the fleet accepting this change (a la mid racing). Up till now no F16 fleet had disallowed it when faced with such a situation but I'm not sure if opinions will be the same whe you try this at a really important event like the Global Challenge. At club race level I imagine it will always be allowed. But you always have to put it to the fleet. The only exception here is when you change the setup right before closing time of the official registration. Up to that point you can change at will.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: uni vs sloop [Re: Wouter] #158351
10/27/08 08:17 AM
10/27/08 08:17 AM
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Wilhelmshaven, Niedersachsen, ...
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luckystrike118 Offline
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Interesting question and a nice idea. whistle
Imagine what happens when the crewmember rolls in the jib just before the last windward mark, hoists the spinnaker and then jumps overboard allowing a fast last downwind run for the skipper grin

regards, Michael


hullaballo
Re: uni vs sloop [Re: Wouter] #158355
10/27/08 08:53 AM
10/27/08 08:53 AM
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Timbo Offline
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What would really be nice is if we could get enough of both, Uni and Sloop, at a single regatta, (say, 5 or more of each) to score and trophy them together and separately. You boys over in England seem to get out more Uni's than sloops, any reason why or does it change a lot, week to week?


Blade F16
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Re: uni vs sloop [Re: Timbo] #158373
10/27/08 11:28 AM
10/27/08 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Timbo
What would really be nice is if we could get enough of both, Uni and Sloop, at a single regatta, (say, 5 or more of each) to score and trophy them together and separately. You boys over in England seem to get out more Uni's than sloops, any reason why or does it change a lot, week to week?


I think the reason we generally got more single handers is that we are looking for a single hander we can also sail two up instead of a 2 up boat we can sometimes sail single handed.


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Re: uni vs sloop [Re: Wouter] #158406
10/27/08 07:58 PM
10/27/08 07:58 PM
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Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Can you please identify the class rule that permits the changing the boats configuration from uni to sloop or sloop to uni once the regatta has started.


David Ingram
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Re: uni vs sloop [Re: David Ingram] #158407
10/27/08 08:05 PM
10/27/08 08:05 PM
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Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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Originally Posted by David Ingram
Can you please identify the class rule that permits the changing the boats configuration from uni to sloop or sloop to uni once the regatta has started.


Uhhhhh, this is "official" F16 info ... we'd have to shoot you if we told you.

Why do you care anyway? Thinking about moving to the F16 class and just being sure that you can throw your crew overboard and not get DSQ'd?



USA 777
Re: uni vs sloop [Re: tback] #158411
10/27/08 09:05 PM
10/27/08 09:05 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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What he is really worried about is his crew abandoning ship...

;^)

Last edited by Timbo; 10/27/08 09:06 PM.

Blade F16
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Re: uni vs sloop [Re: luckystrike118] #158412
10/27/08 09:10 PM
10/27/08 09:10 PM
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Brisbane, Queensland, Australi...
ncik Offline
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Quote
Interesting question and a nice idea. whistle
Imagine what happens when the crewmember rolls in the jib just before the last windward mark, hoists the spinnaker and then jumps overboard allowing a fast last downwind run for the skipper grin

regards, Michael


Your comment seemed like a joke but just to clarify...

RRS 2009-2012, p24

47.2 No person on board shall intentionally leave, except when ill or injured, or to help a person or vessel in danger, or to swim. A person leaving the boat by accident or to swim shall be back on board before the boat continues in the race.


Last edited by ncik; 10/28/08 02:15 AM. Reason: added quote
Re: uni vs sloop [Re: ncik] #158413
10/27/08 09:25 PM
10/27/08 09:25 PM
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South Gippsland
ausstricker Offline
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I belive that rule only comes into play once a race begins what not before and after
Cheers Shane


Boat Less & Cant Sail To Save My Self (16ft Dolphin Currently Under Major Rebuild)
Re: uni vs sloop [Re: ausstricker] #158418
10/27/08 09:55 PM
10/27/08 09:55 PM
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Arkansas, USA
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When I first got my Taipan 4.9 (before Wouter, Phill and I devised the F16) I sailed in 2 regattas where I registered as a sloop with 2 crew but my crew (my son) only lasted through the first race before getting seasick/cold/tired so I DNS'ed a race and sailed to the beach and dropped he and jib off then continued regatta uni. Nobody complained because they used the "faster" sloop number since that is how I had registered. That "ability"- ie to sail sloop or uni by merely adding/dropping jib/crew with great performance either way is what drew me to the Taipan in the first place and what prompted us to dream up the class. Prior to that there were some boats you could sail either way (NACRA 5.5 for instance) but they had different masts/sails/etc. (although they were close) and they were too heavy for me to enjoy singlehanding. When we started the class we did not intend for people to "switch" in the middle of a regatta, let alone a single race, unless there was some extremely unusual situation and then only if no perceived advantage were gained. To me the advantage of the F16 over an "A" for instance is the spinnaker, the added durability and relative lifespan of the boats, and the ability to take another person with me when/if I want, although 90% of my sailing is uni.

Kirt


Kirt Simmons
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Re: uni vs sloop [Re: Timbo] #158421
10/28/08 01:27 AM
10/28/08 01:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Timbo
What he is really worried about is his crew abandoning ship...

;^)


I've heard rumors. . .

Growing the Class [Re: Timbo] #158425
10/28/08 03:37 AM
10/28/08 03:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Timbo
You boys over in England seem to get out more Uni's than sloops, any reason why or does it change a lot, week to week?


Timbo, the reason why we here in Europe are sailing more uni rigged boats is, that the way from the windward mark to the beach is to far and the water is much colder than in Australia. When we kick our crew over board to gain some speed on the downwind leg many of them didn't make it to the beach.

grin
Yes thats it! We grow the class by throwing crew menbers over board! Every skipper takes new crew members for regatta and as soon as they have to swim several miles from the windward mark to the beach ones or twice, they have enough of their skipper and will buy their own f 16 to continue fast cat sailing.

Regards, Michael



hullaballo
Re: uni vs sloop [Re: David Ingram] #158426
10/28/08 03:39 AM
10/28/08 03:39 AM
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Wouter Offline
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Can you please identify the class rule that permits the changing the boats configuration from uni to sloop or sloop to uni once the regatta has started.


There is no class rule that either allows this or forbids it.

The F16 class rules leaves this open to be regulated by the SI or by vote of the other participants in the fleet.

The F16 class rules often do not rule on HOW an event is organised or structured. That is something for the group of people organising the event to decide.

Of course it is expected that you race/finish the event as you have started it and a mid-event change has thus far only been allowed when it was announced before the closure of the registration and when no objections from the fleet was received. I know of only one exception and that was last years (or 2007) Gulfport A-cat/F16 invitational where the wind were so unstable that several 1-up crews asked mid-event if they could hook up to form 2-up crews. It was decided that the 1-up and 2-up results would be handles seperately meaning that several DNS's were recorded for these crews and thus removing any unfairness towards the crews that remained with their original configuration.

Now I know that for alot of people this situation is hard to understand (not that I understand why that is) but the practically speaking each crew finished the event in the setup they started in and only in a fewe special cases was a change allowed. Often measures were taken to garantee that such a change never disadvantaged any "consistant" crews.

It is foremost a possibility to allow people to participate justifying the expenses made to get to the event, it is not a class policy or even an encouraged principle to change setup mid-event. The only thing that is encouraged is the possibility to sail both setups in general or change setups up to the moment of final registration (Changing setup between seperate events).

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 10/28/08 03:43 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: uni vs sloop [Re: Wouter] #158428
10/28/08 04:33 AM
10/28/08 04:33 AM
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I can see someone taking advantage of any rules (or lack off) regarding competing in an event as sloop and uni.

Light winds favour uni, fresh favours sloop. Just check out the forecast and plan accordingly.


Re: uni vs sloop [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #158429
10/28/08 04:51 AM
10/28/08 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Tornado_ALIVE
I can see someone taking advantage of any rules (or lack off) regarding competing in an event as sloop and uni.

Light winds favour uni, fresh favours sloop. Just check out the forecast and plan accordingly.


TA,

Wouter has over simplified it.

Statndard SI's forbid the changing of crew or equipement - changing config is both.

You enter an EVENT in one config or other. We have had situations (Mumbles 2007 is a classic example) where someone's crew cannot make part of the regatta, they register and declare this well in advance and then we, the sailors OK it (or not) AS IT IS OUTSIDE THE NORM. You could not EXPECT to get this approved, but you MIGHT. We are a friedly class!

I think if someone asked to do this on the first day of the regatta they might get a different answer!!, as it might be decided that they WERE trying to gain advantage, instead of using the flexability of the boat to get sailing.

In this case, Paul asked to do this a couple of months before the event was due to start!!! It was VERY windy when Paul was sailing without Anne and lighter when he was!

In a club race series, over 3 or 6 months, I think people would have to be very anal not to allow it. The ability to sail one or 2 up is part of the attraction of F16.



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Re: uni vs sloop [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #158432
10/28/08 06:15 AM
10/28/08 06:15 AM
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Wouter Offline
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Light winds favour uni, fresh favours sloop. Just check out the forecast and plan accordingly.



Just as team USA did with the Hooter in this years Olympics right ? Sure as hell made them a winner !

Otherwise Scooby sais it best.

Besides, this is something that can never be prohibited. Why not have a special high winds and special low wind suit of sails ? And wait till the last possible moment of registration to decide what to use. Same when you own a Tornado and an A-cat. Then too you can wait till the last possible moment and switch upon what you think gives you the best advantage. I hear the Tiger is best for high winds and the Capricorn for the rest. Why not own both and decided right before the registration closes ? Want to change mainsail cut mid-event in a F18 world championship ? Just jump through it and claim replacement due to damage.

Most classes pretend that these loopholes don't exist. The F16 class does not. So with us you can switch setup to whatever you like right up to the closing of the registation office and change only mid-event when that is accepted by your competitors in the fleet. Simple and effective !

My PERSONAL opinion is that a crew may change whenever they want (I really don't believe one setup has a significant advantage over another) when each setup is handled in the results as a seperate entry. Thus meaning that when you switch you'll receive DNS's for all races where you were sailing in the old setup and DNS's for all future races you are not sailing the old setup.

Example :

Say I switch midevent in a 2 day event (3 races each day) :

2-up : 1st race = 4th, 2nd race = 3 rd, 3rd race = 5th, 4th race = DNS, 5th race = DNS, 6th race = DNS
1-up : 1st race = DNS, 2nd race = DNS, 3rd race = DNS, 4th race = 3rd, 5th race = 1st, 6th race = 4th

There is absolutely no way you can be in any way advantaged to a crew who has done all races in the same setup (no dns's) this way as of course each DNS awards you the maximum amount of points in a "the best of low scores" system.

You will be foolish to switch setups in a structure like this and thus it will be selfcontrolling.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 10/28/08 06:23 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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