Me too, so what is the problem? Did I violate any rules or SI's? Why don't you just come out and tell us?

Or is this about the upcoming Alter Cup Area D race? WTF?

you have my number. as far I'm concern this issue is closed.

Pardon me for not jumping into the F18 forum and doing the same, but you see, I don't own an F18 so I really don't care what their rules are, even if we are racing together.


I don't know about the rest of you F16 sailors, but I refuse to allow some outside class to tell us what our rules should be. If they want to put it in the sailing instructions, fine, but if we have the same P number Sloop or Uni, I see no reason why we cannot switch when ever we feel like it, and for what ever reason, and without asking permission from a bunch of F18 Nazi's to do it.

To get back to the original question that started this thread;

Karl, I have no problem with you leaving your girlfriend on the beach if she doesn't want to go out, and I won't protest you if you do, no matter what the wind.

When this thread started, I would have prefered that the same configuration be kept throughout a regatta. I've changed course by 180!

Since the entire planet seems hell bent and determined to tell us what to do, I propose we do the opposite!!

If memory serves, there is a regatta down in the Caribbean where the local fishermen load their sloops with as many crew as they can carry, hike them out on boards, and when they head downwind to finish all the crew jump off into the water! I vote we adopt that rule! Crew can bail anytime!

Tiki,

come up and see me ... spend some time ... relax a bit ... you're getting too wound up!

Timbo,

I'm with you ... put up the sail [or take one down] ... get to the start and let's RACE!

Thank you for your support.

I'm Tim Bohan, and I approved this message.

wow heated indeed. Its sad that so many curse words were used to emphasis the lack of conviction ability.

I hope you folks are not growing grudges specially towards the "F18 Nazis" I am now an F18er but I got mad love for the F16 crowd. After all I was the owner of the first production built fully compliant F16 owner in the United States.

Whos buying the first virtual rounds? I prefer rum and cokes over beer, so bring em on!

OK, lets not throw mud around....

I'd like to ask some simple questions and I'lll provide the answers I would expect if I was racing at "an important handicap open" in the UK (i am sailing a Tornado)

1, The wind has changed, can I change my mainsail for one that is more appropiate for the conditions
UK answer; No, you started the regatta with this sail, as you know, you cannot change equipeemnt during the regatta unless it is damamged
2, My crew does not fancy sailing today, can I change him for another one?
UK answer; Nope, there is no good reason for a crew change; mutiny is not a good reason
3, My crew has broken his arm, can I change him for another one?
UK answer; Please apply to he OOD in wrinting as per standard procedures; you will be granted this request.

Now in THIS EXAMPLE, would you expect the same answers in the US or any other locale?

Now similar questions.....But I am now sailing an F16

1, The wind has changed, can I change my mainsail for one that is more appropiate for the conditions
UK answer; No, you started the regatta with this sail, as you know, you cannot change equipeemnt during the regatta unless it is damamged
2, My crew does not fancy sailing today, can I change him for another one?
UK answer; Nope, there is no good reason for a crew change; mutiny is not a good reason
3, My crew has broken his arm, can I change him for another one?
UK answer; Please apply to he OOD in wrinting as per standard procedures; you will be granted this request.
4, I would like to take a crew as its got real windy and I do not want to sail single handed.
UK answer; Nope, there is no good reason for a crew change(adding one), or an equipment change (adding a Jib and trap wire).
5, My crew has broken his arm, may I sil in single handed mode......
UK answer (by the book): Nope, there is no good reason for a crew change(removing one), or an equipment change (removing a Jib and trap wire). However you may sail with a substiture crew if you aplly in the ususal way.
UK answer I'd expect you to get from the F16 fleet if you were sailing at an F16 event, but you would probably be subject to a vote by the other sailors in the fleet: Yes, you can, shame its now blown up windy, you'll have a lot of fun, as you don't usually sail single handed, we'll keep an eye out for you.

Mine's a pint





None of this is anything to do with the F16 rules, it is ALL covered in the standard SI's.

Well here's the thing Scooby, I was talking about a local club type regatta, not a huge National event or even a Qulifier to a big event. I believe there are more restrictive rules for Championship events. How many of us weigh our boats and get our sails measured at any event but a Nationals, for example.

We don't have many F16 only events, I can only think of one per year. Most of our racing is with several other types, F18's and I-20's mostly, and unless the turnout is very good (not likely any more) we all share the same start, sail the same course, and are scored on handicap.

The F18's were quite vocal about getting the P number lowered for the F16's, and they did, and that number is the same for Uni or Sloop and if they are going to use that, then I see -no reason- why it should matter to change configuration during an open racing, handicap type event.

If it's not a rule in the F16 class, and if it's not prohibited in the Sailing Instructions, I see no reason why we should have to ask permission from anyone when we are racing on P number handicaps.

Now, on the sails themselves, that is covered in the sailing rules as you stated, you cannot change one mainsail/jib/spinnaker for another unless it's damaged.

And on swapping out crewmemebers, you cannot take the fat guy on a windy day and the 8yr. old on a light day, unless as you said, an injury is involved you ask in writing to replace him.

But I don't think the word "Configuration" is in the rulebook.

And Robie, since when is [censored] a curse word? ;^)

the dude has a point... if the number is the same, who gives a kiss?
maybe the "others" would be happier if our number were 50, then they would no longer care.
BTW.. Have I brought up the sweet and unfair rating of the N17 recently? No? QD baby, may need to increase that to BID... tiki knows what I mean!

The U.S. Portsmouth system is a reporting system. To my knowledge, there is no requirement to report. The system is purely voluntary. Without new data input, the handicap numbers remain unchanged, even if the sailors increase their skill levels.

For almost three years I have heard complaints about the F16s number being too generous. Now, the number has been lowered but no other class has been lowered. This must mean that others are perfect and cannot improve or they are not reporting.

Omitting data manipulates the system.

IMO, the simplest cure is to go to a non-reporting system. Texel for example.


Texel currently rates F16 and F18 at 106. There are so many versions of the N17 it's impossible for me to know which number is appropriate, but they are all higher than 106 (I think).

I'm all for abandoning Portsmouth in favor of Texel.

I remember one of these F16 only events (Gulfport F16 invitiation 2 years ago), we had alot of F16's, but it was blowing like "stink" (25+ knots and gusting) on day 1, so all the uni's doubled up. Granted we had 3 less boats on the start for Saturday, but the racing was excellent. And Yes, the usual suspects still placed 1-2-3.

Racing was more exciting because most boats were "in" the race ... not capsized for being overpowered.

Day two was more manageable and we went back to uni config ... putting more boats to the line. Again the usual suspects finished 1-2-3.

No one complained, EVERYONE had a blast and we toasted over beers and excellent food (did I say this was at Gulfport ... the best [censored] hosted regatta or club event (next to SpringFever) in the Eastern USA!

Come on over tomorrow! We can cruise around the course and just enjoy the water. I haven't been out since June!!!

sad state of affairs if I have sailed my Blade more recently than youhave sailed yours

True. I haven't been out since May ... and probably not again until January. I've got my sights (and hopes) set for Tradewinds.

All the best.

Maybe there should be a rule that says you are only allowed to place 1 post for every hour you sail!

Just to be clear, the F18 rules say nothing about changing crew during a regatta: http://www.f18-international.org/F18_2007_Class_Rules.pdf
Its the NoR/SI that should cover these issues, I think changing crew is fine as long as there is a valid reason and it is approved by the race organizers.
IMHO if you dont it might reak a little of opportunism when you switch between crews or even go uni during a regatta to suit conditions.
Its not fair to the crews either, because if there is a lowwind day and the skipper decides to sail uni.

What might be a fun idea for an F16-only event though is that you are allowed 1 change during the course of a regatta.

(Timbo: maybe you should apologize for calling other sailors Nazis, that is totally ridiculous.)

I am not surprised that there was absolutely no input about the rating of the N17 on the F17 forum from the N17 sailors. Clearly they didn't want to feed the trolls. However, at least we answer their legitimate questions when they post here


And, Tony F18-
I don't mind at all... and none of us should.... non F16 sailors coming on the F16 forum and offering whatever opinion about whatever even if it is against the F16. HOWEVER, you are on the computer also so don't make comments about how much we post. I infrequently read the F18 forum. I read the F17 forum and post there because their president set that precedent.

From Pete's post above:Without new data input, the handicap numbers remain unchanged, even if the sailors increase their skill levels.

Pete, it's the same sailors at the top, I've got no problem with that, but let's talk about the NEW F18's that are now out there, the Capricorn and the Infusion. Based on the top 10 finishes of their own recently completed F18 N/A's, I would say those two boats are "faster" than the old F18 rating. But, due to the nature of P numbers, since it was a F18 only regatta, no data will be used to correct their number.

Now, here is the most stupid part of P number racing. Take Wild Cat as a really good example. 2 Blades, 3 Inter 20's, 4 F18's. Matt was beating just about all of them, boat for boat, most of the races. I was somewhere in the middle of the fleet most of the time.

So based on that, I guess the F16 should be rated FASTER than an Inter 20 and F18, right? And somebody will submit that data and then argue to lower the F16 number further. But let's look at what actually happened.

Some of the boats (Inter 20's) sailed the WRONG course on a couple of the races! They thought they had to go to B mark when they didn't. They were not DSQ'd, as they sailed a longer course, not shorter, so their finish times were not realistic in comparrison to anyone who sailed the correct course. Also, there were boats that flipped. Again, this slows the actual times down and does not reflect the real speed the boat is capable of.

This is why I said in an earlier post, we should measure the course, take times, see how fast a boat is "When Sailed Properly", by a top level skipper and/or crew.

If Alex had been there on his Inter 20 with Nigel, they would have stomped us all, boat for boat, no doubt. If Robie Daniels had been there on his Capricorn, he would have been right behind Alex and Nigel, boat for boat, no doubt. And they both would have been well ahead of me, no doubt.

Using finish times in triangle racing on a gusty, shifty, crash filled race course is just plain stupid, but that's all we have.

I, being of engineering background, would prefer we come up with a formula that measures the boat's sail area, weight, beam, waterline, and pick a -standard- for crew wt. and use that. This takes out the variables of wind, skill, luck, etc.

Otherwise, you are going by who is having a good day, vs. who is having a bad day and if the conditions favored a light boat or a heavy boat.

http://www.watersportverbond.nl/content.asp?me_id=481

Give this a look.