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Re: uni vs sloop [Re: new guy] #158854
10/31/08 01:20 PM
10/31/08 01:20 PM
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Angry Friday. Buy a boat, go sailing.

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Re: uni vs sloop [Re: new guy] #158855
10/31/08 01:21 PM
10/31/08 01:21 PM
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scooby_simon Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo
Thanks for that Scooby, I couldn't find a Blade type F16 on there anywhere, it just says, "Refer F16" So what is that number, for comparison to the F18, which also says, "Refer F18"? Is it the same as the Spitfire, Uni and 2 up?


The F16 has one rating for one up and one for 2 up.

Ditto the F18.

Spitfire is only raced 2 up; if someone wants to race it one up; get an ISAF measurement certificate and you can.

Originally Posted by pepin
(interesting, knowing that the box rule doesn't limit the daggerboard area and that the area is necessary for the rating calculation...).



We rate the dagger board at the values that provides the fastest rating.

As for the small rig F18; if you wish to sail as such, you need an ISAF measureemnt certificate to show you are sailing with the small rig in a handicap event, that certificate will have the rating on it.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

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Re: uni vs sloop [Re: new guy] #158856
10/31/08 01:23 PM
10/31/08 01:23 PM
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Essex, UK
Jalani Offline
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Originally Posted by new guy
hey just a guy who wants to buy a f16 and am confused, sorry if you thought it was crap. there has been a lot of disscussions about the speed rating and wanted some info. and you guys all seem to have alot of the answers, am i asking in the wrong place? or is this just angry friday?


There are a few bruised egos on here and you'd need to have been here a while to know the background and whether they are justified in feeling as they do.

If you are genuinely interested (I'm not saying you're not), introduce yourself, then ask your questions. F16 in the USA can't, in isolation, go to 'a new rating system'. The standard handicap rating system in the USA is Portsmouth and that is, in all liklihood, the way it'll stay. Changing to a different system shouldn't, in theory, make one design faster than another per se. But in the case of moving from a results based system (Portsmouth) to a measurement based system (SCHRS, Texel) what it can do is remove the anomalies and discrepancies inherent between designs and types as a result of differences in quality of sailors in the two classes.


John Alani
___________
Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538
Re: uni vs sloop [Re: fin.] #158857
10/31/08 01:23 PM
10/31/08 01:23 PM
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that is what i want to do but am confused as to b cat or f16


Tim
wanting a catamaran
Re: uni vs sloop [Re: new guy] #158858
10/31/08 01:24 PM
10/31/08 01:24 PM
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Michigan
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Originally Posted by new guy
hey just a guy who wants to buy a f16 and am confused, sorry if you thought it was crap. there has been a lot of disscussions about the speed rating and wanted some info. and you guys all seem to have alot of the answers, am i asking in the wrong place? or is this just angry friday?

angry friday actually.
the speed rating, according to the USSailing DPN number, which is used for most everything open class in the US is not accurate and maybe not as accurate as other systems. as others have said, it is apples to oranges and if you are a hard core racer then maybe a one design class would be best or only race within your class. The F16 rating may indeed get faster or slower... but likely faster. If they keep beating N20s on elapsed time then maybe the number should be closer to that.
Just seems odd to me that our number changed mid season, and there is plenty talk about the N17 having a gift rating but that I do not think has ever changed.
What is nice about the F16 crowd is that we pride ourselves on elapsed time, not corrected time when I see race reports. No one on here has bragged about correcting out above this or that.

and there is an understandable amount of reservation about posters with no history

Last edited by PTP; 10/31/08 01:30 PM.
Re: uni vs sloop [Re: new guy] #158859
10/31/08 01:27 PM
10/31/08 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by new guy
that is what i want to do but am confused as to b cat or f16


You'll have to explain that for me.

Re: uni vs sloop [Re: PTP] #158860
10/31/08 01:29 PM
10/31/08 01:29 PM
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do you get trophies or points for elapsed time i used to drag race so i understand that
Tim Tuliwitski


Tim
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Re: uni vs sloop [Re: new guy] #158861
10/31/08 01:30 PM
10/31/08 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by new guy
do you get trophies or points for elapsed time i used to drag race so i understand that
Tim Tuliwitski

not in open class racing. In class racing you do.

Re: uni vs sloop [Re: PTP] #158863
10/31/08 01:34 PM
10/31/08 01:34 PM
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why no points or trophies in open class racing? so does this mean i should only race in the class?
Tim


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Re: uni vs sloop [Re: new guy] #158864
10/31/08 01:35 PM
10/31/08 01:35 PM
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you don't get trophies for elapsed time in open class, only for corrected time.

Re: uni vs sloop [Re: new guy] #158865
10/31/08 01:36 PM
10/31/08 01:36 PM
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Some times a trophy for "Line Honors" is awarded. That would be for the first boat to cross the line, regardless of handicap. It depends on the people putting on the regatta.

My club, http://www.gulfportyachtclub.com/index.html , gave a nice bottle of rum for line honors in a regatta last year.

Re: uni vs sloop [Re: PTP] #158866
10/31/08 01:38 PM
10/31/08 01:38 PM
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so that means there is some sort of handicap system like golf or bowling
Tim do i have to keep putting my name here, as one person got mad, and i do not know the rules around here with all you guys


Tim
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Re: uni vs sloop [Re: new guy] #158868
10/31/08 01:51 PM
10/31/08 01:51 PM
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Michigan
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no

Re: uni vs sloop [Re: new guy] #158869
10/31/08 01:52 PM
10/31/08 01:52 PM
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You can fill in your "profile" and your name will automatically show at the bottom of each of your posts. Fill in as much or as little as you like.

There is a handicap with boats of different types i.e. when I sail my F16 against A Class cats. When I sail against other F16s there is no handicap. It is simply the order of finish. Often, the results are mixed. For instance, tomorrow I will be sailing with 5 F16s, which constitutes a fleet, and 5 or more A Cats, who constitute their own fleet. The result will be recorded as Portsmouth (all boats combined and rated according to handicap) and as individual fleets (by order of finish). So, there will be a Portsmouth winner, an A Class winner and a F16 winner. To further complicate it, the Portsmouth winner will likely be the A Cat winner.

Clear as mud!? smile

Last edited by Tikipete; 10/31/08 01:54 PM.
Re: uni vs sloop [Re: PTP] #158870
10/31/08 01:56 PM
10/31/08 01:56 PM
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there is not a handicap system, i am confused i sure i am not as good as you


Tim
wanting a catamaran
Re: uni vs sloop [Re: new guy] #158874
10/31/08 02:29 PM
10/31/08 02:29 PM
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Orlando, FL
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I'll take a crack at it:

As Pete said, when racing with other F16 (5 in a race constitutes a class) we race against each other. First across wins (no handicap system is used...regardless of boat configuration uni (single handed) or sloop (two person crew)).

If we sail in an "Open" class, which means there aren't enough boats of one kind to make a class..all the boats are handicaped by a "Portsmouth Number". You can learn more about how the portsmouth number works here .

The elapsed time of each boat is "corrected" based upon their porstmouth number. These times stacked lowest time to highest time. Lowest time wins...




USA 777
Re: uni vs sloop [Re: new guy] #158875
10/31/08 02:29 PM
10/31/08 02:29 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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The "handicap" is based on the type boat you are sailing, not on your personal ability, like in Golf or in Drag racing. It exists so that a bunch of different type cats can all race together, finish separately, do some math, determine the winner per the math. If instead of a mixed fleet (what we call an 'Open class fleet') all the cats are of the same type, there is no need for the handicap and the first boat across the finish line wins, no math involved.


Blade F16
#777
Re: uni vs sloop [Re: new guy] #158876
10/31/08 02:42 PM
10/31/08 02:42 PM
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scooby_simon Offline
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Originally Posted by new guy
there is not a handicap system, i am confused i sure i am not as good as you


When we race as a fleet, first across the line wins.

When we race in a Handicap fleet, a rating is applied to your finishing time to factor this time against the "handicap" (or rating) for the boat. A example will assist:

Boat A has a handicap of 1.00 (on SCHRS)
Boat B has a handicap of 1.01 (on SCHRS); this boat is slightly SLOWER
Boat C has a handicap of 0.99 (on SCHRS); this boat is the fastest of the 3.

If all 3 boats sail a race....

Boat C finishes the race in exactly 99 minutes
Boat A finishes the race in exactly 100 minutes
Boat B finishes the race in exactly 101 minutes.

We can now convert their finish time into a "corrected time" based on their handicap:

Corrected time = finish time / handicap

C = 99 / .99 = 100
B = 101/1.01 = 100
A = 100/100 = 100

So in this race all 3 boats had the same "corrected time" and so are scored equal.

In the next race the finish times are

Boat C finishes the race in exactly 98 minutes
Boat A finishes the race in exactly 100 minutes
Boat B finishes the race in exactly 102 minutes.

C = 98 / .99 = 98.99 mins (sorry, decial minutes!)
B = 102/1.01 = 100.99 (")
A = 100/100 = 100

So in this race, C wins, A is second and B is last; this suggests that C sailed best, then A and B worst.

In SCHRS and Texel the handicap is derived by taking measurements from the boat and then calculating how fast the BOAT should sail. In PY/Portsmouth, the handicap is derived by the performance of the boat (and those that sail them) against other boats. Most cat sailors believe that SCHRS and Texel are better as they calc the rating based on measuring the boat and so crew skill has no effect on the rating calculated.

Because PY/Portsmouth provides ratings based on the performance of the boat when being sailed, the skill of those sailing the boat has an impact on the rating calculated.

PY?Portsmouth also needs RESULTS to calc a rating SCHRS/Texel does not; measure the boat (offically) and plug the values into the calculation engine (you can download the SCHRS one from the front page of the site) and you have the rating

Last edited by scooby_simon; 10/31/08 03:04 PM.

F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: uni vs sloop [Re: scooby_simon] #158877
10/31/08 02:51 PM
10/31/08 02:51 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Bingo! Thanks for that excellent explanation Scooby!

And on the Mean Friday thing?

It's Halloween!!

Did I scare you?


Blade F16
#777
Re: uni vs sloop [Re: Timbo] #158888
10/31/08 05:34 PM
10/31/08 05:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline OP
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Sweet baby jesus, what is wrong with you guys? 14 pages for a simple question... Attacks on just the stupidist stuff to boot.

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