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Re: People have to see this stuff... [Re: dacarls] #160945
11/19/08 09:15 PM
11/19/08 09:15 PM
Joined: May 2006
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Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
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Some of it's necessity when I sent a few thousand long tail lambs to the Haj it was explained to me.
Every Muslim must visit Mecca and when they do they must give a pure lamb to the needy, hence no chopping off the tail. Obviously they cant all go with a lamb under their arm so they pay a fee to the Saudi Govt who then buy shiploads of lambs. These ships are then sent to the poor Muslim country of choice where presumably the locals who don't own refrigerators or big screen TV's buy them at a subsidised price and ritually slaughter them. The live sheep exporting countries have tried to train locals and teach them that a non stressed animal tastes better but its been a waste of time because we only have influence while were sending animals there.


Jeff Southall
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-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: People have to see this stuff... [Re: erice] #160947
11/19/08 09:24 PM
11/19/08 09:24 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
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Bay of Islands, NZ
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Originally Posted by erice
i agree that everyone should see this stuff

- legislation should force mandatory school visits to slaughter houses for kids who eat meat

- graduating from high school should at least require wringing a chickens neck, plucking it and cooking it over an open fire, vegetarians to grow a crop of lentils in their final year

- KFC should have a few dead rubber chickens hanging from the ceilings above the register

- entering MacDonalds you should see a life sized butchered cow carcass hanging from a meat hook

for far too long people have been happy to ignore the realities of humans being omnivores with meat cutting teeth

oh and while we are on the "point out the bleeding obvious" crusade

- death penalty executions should be televised


I would take a share in televising that death penalty thing. Big bucks for advertising in that time slot. You have to be careful what you wish for as it might not generate the effect you desire.
I am a shoot them kind of a guy as that is what I would have done to myself. Anyone who has been hit hard and knocked unconscious will verify that it is a relatively painless thing. It is the waking up that hurts and of course the dead do not wake up. Possibly not as viewer friendly as a juddering electrocution victim but definitely not cruel or unusual and the Chinese always pack the stadiums for executions.

Perhaps all meat eaters should have to work a season in a meat works. But do we want so many people trained to kill? After all they might get sick of being told what to do and take an action that might see them on that "Dead Right" show.


Re: People have to see this stuff... [Re: warbird] #160959
11/20/08 01:01 AM
11/20/08 01:01 AM
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Posts: 271
Atlanta, Ga
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It's convenient how something can magically be deemed as acceptable just by calling it "tradition." The Mayans and Aztecs killed a massive amount of people by sacrificial traditions.. Guess I'll just have to smile and respectfully wave next time I see an Aztec descendant push someone off a cliff.



Re: People have to see this stuff... [Re: BLR_0719] #160977
11/20/08 07:16 AM
11/20/08 07:16 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 757
japan
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if you don't want to eat whale, then don't eat it, problem solved

if you don't want other people to eat whale meat then there's a problem

kind of like a vegetarian having a duck down sleeping bag, a leather belt and being pro-choice


eric e
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Re: People have to see this stuff... [Re: erice] #160985
11/20/08 09:30 AM
11/20/08 09:30 AM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 182
Appleton, WI
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Alright, I for the most part I managed to keep my nose out of the drill thread, but this one is driving my nuts. I won't get into whether or not it's right to kill an animal and eat it. My arguments on that topic won't convince any vegetarians to go out and eat a burger, so I'll leave that one alone. But...

Did anyone actually _read_ the articles that where linked on the TruthOrFiction site? Maybe start with this one from the BBC:
url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/3104494.stm

Couple quick quotes from the BBC journalist:
There was very little waste, one man told me as he stacked his share into a pickup, for more than 90% of each animal was consumed.

He was, he said, going to dry his portion of whale meat in the traditional way so it could be eaten by his family over the winter.

They had no doubts. With 800,000 pilot whales in the North Atlantic and with rarely more than 2,000 a year taken in the Faroes, the whale population was not under threat.



Now read this one for some more background information on whaling, why they use a knife and the stats on Time-to-death.
http://www.whaling.fo/nammco99whalingandanimal.htm

When you think about it, their times to death are actually quite impressive. When using a whaling knife and blow hole hook, their average time to death is 29.2 seconds. I can't say that I've ever shot a deer with my bow or gun that has died that quickly (hell, even the ones I've hit with my car haven't died that quickly!).

When I read the first post in this thread I thought it's so far out there this must be an email hoax. After reading the some of the background on it, I have no problem with these people hunting for their food... No, I don't consider this to be their culture (maybe long standing tradition, but not culture), just hunting for a winter store of food.

As long as I'm venting... the comment about "killing a dolphin with a crowbar" is uninformed and way off base for this topic.


Bah... election season, all of my boats are in storage... everyone seems to be a bit touchy lately. Let it snow so I can get out my skis and hit the slopes (or do some of you take offense to that too crazy ). laugh

Re: People have to see this stuff... [Re: blockp] #160989
11/20/08 10:33 AM
11/20/08 10:33 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 199
Constanta, Romania
isvflorin Offline OP
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Technically those are Risso dolphins. Don't think getting technical about the tools was of much use, but I did post links with info about them.

I don't expect ppl share my view on this, we are all different.
Those dolphins are not in danger of exctinction, and they do consume almost all of it, posted links about it.
I have a problem with the way they do it.
I also think it is useless looking at the numbers. I doubt any of us would choose between 30 seconds or 5 seconds of dying time (while looking at your organs) - for us or for family members as well, how about giving the same consideration for animals ?

I think the 1.4kg of brain we carry should be more than enough for finding better ways to treat your prey. There's a line between hunting and being barbaric. I have respect for hunters that do give that consideration to prey, the ones that aknowledge the harm they make and try to minimize inflicted pain. 30 seconds to 2 seconds is a huge difference. How about thinking of that difference when it comes to humans, loved pets, should it be different ?
Anyway, I'm truly said that a lot of ppl have no problem with the method involved.

Last edited by isvflorin; 11/20/08 10:35 AM.

Florin
Re: People have to see this stuff... [Re: isvflorin] #160993
11/20/08 12:07 PM
11/20/08 12:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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I have a friend who is prone to taking more geese than he should during hunting season, just a couple. Doesn't bother me in the slightest, but he eats them, that's why it doesn't bother me. Folks who will literally fill a pickup with birds just cause they can piss me off.

I would consider myself very lucky to have my own death take 30seconds.

Re: People have to see this stuff... [Re: Karl_Brogger] #160999
11/20/08 01:58 PM
11/20/08 01:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 199
Constanta, Romania
isvflorin Offline OP
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Karl,
technically it takes up to 20-40 seconds for our brain to die (clinical death) from lack of oxygen and blood supply.
So, unless you have massive injury to head first - you'll most probably get your 30 seconds and feel lucky.
But can you elaborate your last statement ? As compared to what ? Just curious.

I must admit, this thread turned somewhat creepy. Good thing about sailing is that you can forget about all the crap going around the world while out there.

Last edited by isvflorin; 11/20/08 02:04 PM.

Florin
Re: People have to see this stuff... [Re: isvflorin] #161000
11/20/08 02:02 PM
11/20/08 02:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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So when you are beheaded, your brain continues living (and you can remain conscious) for 20-40 seconds afterwards?

Re: People have to see this stuff... [Re: Mary] #161002
11/20/08 02:05 PM
11/20/08 02:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 199
Constanta, Romania
isvflorin Offline OP
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Mary,
according to medical books that should be correct.
However a state of shock maybe preventing you for actually being conscious for those 20-40 sec.


Florin
Re: People have to see this stuff... [Re: isvflorin] #161003
11/20/08 02:27 PM
11/20/08 02:27 PM
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 182
Appleton, WI
blockp Offline
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Appleton, WI
That's an interesting statistic. Don't really want to try it out, but interesting wink

But that means these whales are having the equivalent of their heads lopped clean off, and the state of shock may be preventing them from actually being conscious for those 20-40 seconds.

I think I'd side with Karl on the 30 seconds compared to a lot of other ways to go.
My wife's grandfather just passed away last Friday night. The last 6 months or so have been pretty tough for him and everyone around him. The docs kept giving him new drugs to "fix" problems that kept coming up. He's been mostly in pain for one reason or another. On and off for the last month or so he hasn't known where he was or who anyone else was. Early last week, they decided to take him off dialysis and to quit draining his lung that kept filling up. They gave us morphine shots to give him to make the drowning less painful.

30 seconds in the state of shock or 6+ months slowly...

Re: People have to see this stuff... [Re: isvflorin] #161004
11/20/08 02:29 PM
11/20/08 02:29 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
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The History channel had a brief segment on what happens when you are beheaded during one of their shows about the progression of the tools of execution.

They described the situation as the (now disembodied) head senses the feeling of falling and makes an effort to stay itself. But not being connected any more to the body, it continues to sense the falling motion, and for a brief period adopts an expression similar to someone in free-fall.

They also indicated that the brain bleeds out rapidly, and consciousness is lost within about 10 seconds.

I guess that ain't a bad way to go....

As for hunting, I make it a point to make the most rapid knockdown possible for several reasons:
- Most importantly, an instant kill relieves any suffering on the animal's part
- No panic means no stress hormones, which means better meat
- clean kills keep all of the animal's carcass useable


Jay

Re: People have to see this stuff... [Re: isvflorin] #161005
11/20/08 03:02 PM
11/20/08 03:02 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by isvflorin
But can you elaborate your last statement ? As compared to what ? Just curious.


Compared to say, getting cancer. The actual, physical shutdown of death is one thing, the long dragged out circumstances of something killing you is another. Or even a car wreck, where you can't be fixed, you aren't going to make it, but you're still alive. Twisted, mangled, screwed.

Re: People have to see this stuff... [Re: Mary] #161038
11/21/08 03:31 AM
11/21/08 03:31 AM
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 2
South Africa
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South Africa
The French did some research on this (from Wikipedia, "Guillotine"):

The following report was written by a Dr. Beaurieux, who experimented with the head of a condemned prisoner by the name of Henri Languille, on June 28, 1905:

Here, then, is what I was able to note immediately after the decapitation: the eyelids and lips of the guillotined man worked in irregularly rhythmic contractions for about five or six seconds. This phenomenon has been remarked by all those finding themselves in the same conditions as myself for observing what happens after the severing of the neck...

I waited for several seconds. The spasmodic movements ceased. [...] It was then that I called in a strong, sharp voice: 'Languille!' I saw the eyelids slowly lift up, without any spasmodic contractions I insist advisedly on this peculiarity but with an even movement, quite distinct and normal, such as happens in everyday life, with people awakened or torn from their thoughts.

Next Languille's eyes very definitely fixed themselves on mine and the pupils focused themselves. I was not, then, dealing with the sort of vague dull look without any expression, that can be observed any day in dying people to whom one speaks: I was dealing with undeniably living eyes which were looking at me. After several seconds, the eyelids closed again[...].

It was at that point that I called out again and, once more, without any spasm, slowly, the eyelids lifted and undeniably living eyes fixed themselves on mine with perhaps even more penetration than the first time. Then there was a further closing of the eyelids, but now less complete. I attempted the effect of a third call; there was no further movement and the eyes took on the glazed look which they have in the dead.[10]



Oubaas Pretorius Cape Town
Re: People have to see this stuff... [Re: isvflorin] #161043
11/21/08 04:37 AM
11/21/08 04:37 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
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warbird Offline
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Originally Posted by isvflorin
Karl,
technically it takes up to 20-40 seconds for our brain to die (clinical death) from lack of oxygen and blood supply.
So, unless you have massive injury to head first - you'll most probably get your 30 seconds and feel lucky.
But can you elaborate your last statement ? As compared to what ? Just curious.

I must admit, this thread turned somewhat creepy. Good thing about sailing is that you can forget about all the crap going around the world while out there.


I think it got creepy when someone posted a whole lot of bloody slaughter photographs on the sailing sight I like to visit.
If you did not want honest, considered feedback, why did you post it?
Some people are horrified by such things but most are not. We, like it or not are full of instinct as well as reason and instinct says kill to survive.
I do not excuse cruelty but I do not think these people are indulging in some sadistic ritual.
If you are truly serious go to these people and stay with them and try to understand them. It is very easy to sit thousands of miles away and presume you know everything about them and imagine they should just default to your loftier ideals.

I get the impression the post of the slaughter was aimed at creating a condemnation of these people. For what reason? So we might all feel better than them? If everyone here agreed with the sentiment it would mean nothing to the whales and save not one of them.

And it means nothing if you do not think what they are doing is okay and you do not take a more realistic action to stop what they do.

I suppose I am creepy now.


Re: People have to see this stuff... [Re: warbird] #161048
11/21/08 05:26 AM
11/21/08 05:26 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 199
Constanta, Romania
isvflorin Offline OP
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Originally Posted by warbird

If you did not want honest, considered feedback, why did you post it?
Some people are horrified by such things but most are not. We, like it or not are full of instinct as well as reason and instinct says kill to survive.
I do not excuse cruelty but I do not think these people are indulging in some sadistic ritual.
If you are truly serious go to these people and stay with them and try to understand them. It is very easy to sit thousands of miles away and presume you know everything about them and imagine they should just default to your loftier ideals.

I get the impression the post of the slaughter was aimed at creating a condemnation of these people. For what reason? So we might all feel better than them? If everyone here agreed with the sentiment it would mean nothing to the whales and save not one of them.

And it means nothing if you do not think what they are doing is okay and you do not take a more realistic action to stop what they do.

I suppose I am creepy now.



I do wanted honest feedback. No, you were not creepy. I signed petitions, sent emails, posted on website so ppl aknowledge this, sometimes bad things are allowed because it goes on locally and ppl on the outside are not aware of it - I consider this taking action (it is little indeed). I do not feel better about myself, I feel responsible for it too. I hope people that do not aprove this take action as well (as little as it is).
Regarding condemnation : I don't care if these people are Romanians, English, Dutch, Indians, Africans, etc... - they are HUMANS, and that is inhumane.
If you were disturbed by this then I guess I reached my goal.
Bottom line, I'm not saying they should starve or grow more vegetables, I believe humans should have more consideration regarding harvesting natural resources, employing more thinking into it and not just what is easiest, simplest and convenient. I extend that to every natural resource.
We usually defend ourselves when what we do is took for granted, much easier than giving it some thought - "well it's been going on for decades, why should we stop ?"


Florin
Re: People have to see this stuff... [Re: isvflorin] #161049
11/21/08 05:31 AM
11/21/08 05:31 AM
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I encourage you to continue to speak out for what you believe. I want always agree with you, but when you are respectful, as you have been, I will listen.

Re: People have to see this stuff... [Re: isvflorin] #161085
11/21/08 02:50 PM
11/21/08 02:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 1,147
Bay of Islands, NZ
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warbird Offline
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Originally Posted by isvflorin
Originally Posted by warbird

If you did not want honest, considered feedback, why did you post it?
Some people are horrified by such things but most are not. We, like it or not are full of instinct as well as reason and instinct says kill to survive.
I do not excuse cruelty but I do not think these people are indulging in some sadistic ritual.
If you are truly serious go to these people and stay with them and try to understand them. It is very easy to sit thousands of miles away and presume you know everything about them and imagine they should just default to your loftier ideals.

I get the impression the post of the slaughter was aimed at creating a condemnation of these people. For what reason? So we might all feel better than them? If everyone here agreed with the sentiment it would mean nothing to the whales and save not one of them.

And it means nothing if you do not think what they are doing is okay and you do not take a more realistic action to stop what they do.

I suppose I am creepy now.



I do wanted honest feedback. No, you were not creepy. I signed petitions, sent emails, posted on website so ppl aknowledge this, sometimes bad things are allowed because it goes on locally and ppl on the outside are not aware of it - I consider this taking action (it is little indeed). I do not feel better about myself, I feel responsible for it too. I hope people that do not aprove this take action as well (as little as it is).
Regarding condemnation : I don't care if these people are Romanians, English, Dutch, Indians, Africans, etc... - they are HUMANS, and that is inhumane.
If you were disturbed by this then I guess I reached my goal.
Bottom line, I'm not saying they should starve or grow more vegetables, I believe humans should have more consideration regarding harvesting natural resources, employing more thinking into it and not just what is easiest, simplest and convenient. I extend that to every natural resource.
We usually defend ourselves when what we do is took for granted, much easier than giving it some thought - "well it's been going on for decades, why should we stop ?"


Hello Florin.
I understand your discomfort and pain regarding these creatures and their fate and I do not want to labour the point but a word comes up here that sums the discussion up for me.

Bad>

Good and bad are constructs of human conventions and social mores.
These are a product of all sorts of things, including religion and history.

So in some places gays are bad and in other places they are no problem.

Fact is they are neither good nor bad. They just are and other people form an opinion.

I do not like what the Whales killers are doing and I would not want to live in that society. But the me that does not want to live in that society is the me that grew up in New Zealand. If I grew up there the ritual, social engagement and harvesting this practice represents might be the most important thing on my yearly calendar.

Isolating those people by acting regionally and putting trade pressure or whatever on them will create the response that pressure always creates-resistance.

Now, as to posting on this website. I am a sailor. I come to this site as a sailor. I expect some understanding on your part that it is not really a place to push your social or political views.
I felt you ambushed me with those images. The posting of them here created resistance, not empathy in my mind.

Peace of mind is not always an easy thing to create especially where it pertains to our view of the human race.

I do not see these people as a threat to my way of life and so they are welcome to continue what they are doing and reap whatever Kama comes with it.

I hope you find some peace of mind with this but I do not think it will be easy while you think these people are "bad" people.



Re: People have to see this stuff... [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #161505
11/26/08 05:44 PM
11/26/08 05:44 PM

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I saw my first Dolphins a few weeks ago sailing my boat in San Pedro Harbor. I named them Hansel and Grettle they were in no danger from me or anyone else here in the US. I was so glad to see them jumping out of the water over my wake.
Respecting nature is a Sailors first duty and I doubt anyone on this forum has ever killed anything unless they intended to eat it, trout and halibt beware. It was some pretty disturbing pictures of the harvest and had no business on this site. Maybe you can post them on a greenpiece or other animal rights site for more sympathy.
The story about the Alaskans killing a whale but not knowing what to do with it once they had the body was also jacked up but its done.

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