| Re: great 2nd amendment video
[Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
#161934 12/04/08 12:23 PM 12/04/08 12:23 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... TeamChums
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Posts: 1,304 Gulf Coast relocated from Cali... | No Rolf, I don't think you're an butt. Infact if there was something you came to me with needing assistance that I could help with, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to do all I could. In the end, we have a common passion that brought us to this list, and that is sailing. That passion bonds ALL of us in a way that few other passions or lifestyles do. Your viewpoint on this differs from mine, so what. If I thought everyone that had different ideas from me were wrong, I'd be an butt. It's these differences that make the world an interesting place to live. Sometimes our written words are taken differently than when they are spoken. No ill feelings comming from me and I'm sorry if they initially came accross that way. I'm going to clean my guns now.
Last edited by TeamChums; 12/04/08 12:23 PM.
Lee
Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
| | | Re: great 2nd amendment video
[Re: _flatlander_]
#161937 12/04/08 12:44 PM 12/04/08 12:44 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | let's look at it this way, depends on your mindset
when approaching or being approached by a "homeless" person on the street asking for money do you?
a) give him a couple of bucks b) give him $5 c) give him $10 d) oh dammit, I've gone totally plastic, I'll give him the $25 gift card I just bought for my niece.
when approaching or being approached by a "vagrant" on the street asking for money do you?
a) offer him a ride to the soup kitchen b) offer him a ride to rehab c) offer him $20 for raking leaves in your yard for a couple of hours d) keep walking because you already know the answer to a), b) and c)
So...this poor guy, with a gun, needs your wallet, watch and car keys worse than you do and you willingly hand it all over. Then this crack head, jerk pops you in the belly anyway.
I'd play the odds.
what? that didn't make sense. you also didn't list my option. If I can see them coming early enough, I try to just beat them to the punch before they ask for something. I ask "hey man, do you have a dollar I can borrow". I've done this three times...two of those, I got a cross-ways stare while their mental gears grind and then they just turned and walked away. The other guy hung around to tell me his "life story". I didn't get shot once!
Jake Kohl | | | Re: great 2nd amendment video
[Re: TeamChums]
#161940 12/04/08 01:28 PM 12/04/08 01:28 PM |
Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,074 Northfield,NH USA bullswan OP
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Posts: 2,074 Northfield,NH USA | No Rolf, I don't think you're an butt. Infact if there was something you came to me with needing assistance that I could help with, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to do all I could. In the end, we have a common passion that brought us to this list, and that is sailing. That passion bonds ALL of us in a way that few other passions or lifestyles do. Your viewpoint on this differs from mine, so what. If I thought everyone that had different ideas from me were wrong, I'd be an butt. It's these differences that make the world an interesting place to live. Sometimes our written words are taken differently than when they are spoken. No ill feelings comming from me and I'm sorry if they initially came accross that way. I'm going to clean my guns now. Ditto from me Rolf. (except for the cleaning my guns part) Saw a bumpersticker today that said, "Too bad closed minds don't come with matching mouths"
The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised. - George Will "It's not that liberals aren't smart, it's just that so much of what they know isn't so" -Ronald Reagan | | | Re: great 2nd amendment video
[Re: bullswan]
#161944 12/04/08 01:55 PM 12/04/08 01:55 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | Saw a bumpersticker today that said, "Too bad closed minds don't come with matching mouths"
Mr. Pot, I'm pleased to introduce Mr. Kettle.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: great 2nd amendment video
[Re: fin.]
#161945 12/04/08 02:47 PM 12/04/08 02:47 PM |
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 4,451 West coast of Norway Rolf_Nilsen
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Posts: 4,451 West coast of Norway | Rolf: Why are you so worked up over this? I would really like to know
Thanks for the kind words, but I am not worked up at all. I am Mr. Cool on this topic as I dont have any investment to protect. Just been replying in kind to the arguments presented. It is quite possible that I messed up some linguistic nuiance or even goofed up sine I came across as worked up. As to why I entered the discussion and why I care: I think you would be better off with a different weapons culture. I also find many of the arguments for keeping status quo.. challenging? Without discussions like this, there will never be change and that goes both ways. If the topic was something else where those present had something to risk (dont misunderstand), I would not have replied like I have done here. As somebody said earlier, it is your country. I just hope that you make the best you can out of what you have got. This sounds like a good opportunity to end my part of the thread. | | | Re: great 2nd amendment video
[Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
#161946 12/04/08 02:51 PM 12/04/08 02:51 PM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | Sounds very far fetched as Japan had ambitions in the pacific. Actually invading and conquering the USA is something I have never heard the japanese contemplating. As a matter of trivia, Japan DID mount an offensive on American soil besides Hawaii and DID occupy American soil - albeit for a very short time (1942?). The aleutian islands off Alaska were invaded. It was to be a staging ground for an enhanced ground war in that theater.
Jay
| | | Re: great 2nd amendment video
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#161949 12/04/08 03:20 PM 12/04/08 03:20 PM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | Not that it's worth anything, but my cursory observations in criminal tactics seems to indicate that very few are: (1) fully competent in the operation of firearms (2) versed in tactical reloading (3) any good at aiming for stationary OR moving targets.
"Spray and pray" seems to be the mentality. To that I thank the heavens and movies, as it increases the odds of survival if you're ever confronted with such a disaster.
I would suggest that your odds of surviving a criminal attack with a firearm increase logarithmically (or at least geometrically) with the distance between you and the bad guy.
I would also suggest that if you are able to survive the first volley, you'd probably have upwards of 15 seconds to evacuate while the dork tries to reload.
I agree with Rolf - if you have no other choice but to discharge your weapon, the dozier pattern is most effective at incapacitation (Two to the center of mass and one to the head). This should preferably be accomplished while moving to a cover position.
I have no idea why I am even discussing this... I am not an expert, nor am I one who feels an overwhelming probability that I will be attacked (despite my earlier comment regarding my neighbor's armed robbery experience)...
Jay
| | | Re: great 2nd amendment video
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#161952 12/04/08 03:57 PM 12/04/08 03:57 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | this is a great example of many of the gun control issues. An 8 year old was given an UZI at a gun show by experts, he lost control of the recoil, and shot himself in the head - dead. I have a strong feeling that this falls distinctly into an "only in America" category. http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=6393527&page=1
Jake Kohl | | | Re: great 2nd amendment video
[Re: Jake]
#161954 12/04/08 04:56 PM 12/04/08 04:56 PM |
Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 263 SC zander
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Posts: 263 SC | Sorry but, I think that goes in the "no matter what country you are from you don't hand a 8 year old an uzi" category. It is not the weapon, it is the idiot, handing it to someone who has had zero training in it's safe use. To think that it could only happen in america is short-sighted. I agree that too many kids are getting killed by other kids with no respect for anything, but come on that's a tragic story that has little reflection on US Law.
Flame away.
Last edited by zander; 12/04/08 04:56 PM.
Always borrow money from a pessimist. He won't expect it back.
| | | Re: great 2nd amendment video
[Re: Jake]
#161957 12/04/08 05:07 PM 12/04/08 05:07 PM |
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,921 Michigan PTP
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Posts: 2,921 Michigan | oh come on Jake.... surely you see that an uzi is clearly indicated for any self respecting parent with small children that only desires to protect his family! Or what about well meaning sportsmen? How often do you really think they should have to pull a trigger to shoot a deer? OH WAIT! how are you supposed to fulfill your right to overthrow the government without such a basic weapon?
I like handguns and would like to own one... however I just can't get over the impracticality and danger when you have small kids. If you lock one up well enough so your kid doesn't find it and shoot himself or a friend with it then it is worthless for "home defense" anyway. when I was in grade school I had a friend whose dad collected guns. He had probably 60 guns (handguns mostly) hanging on his wall in the basement. His kid would routinely take one off the wall and point it at some friends and pull the trigger. Thankfully the dad was at least smart enough to make sure the guns weren't loaded... but he did leave ammo laying all over the place.
Last edited by PTP; 12/04/08 05:08 PM.
| | | Re: great 2nd amendment video
[Re: zander]
#161958 12/04/08 05:13 PM 12/04/08 05:13 PM |
Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 757 japan erice
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Posts: 757 japan | i hear his father was a Dr. at the local accident and emergency ward...
and that the whole point of going to this "gunshow" was that ANYONE would be able to fire completely automatic under competent instruction
so which idiot is responsible
the 8yo on the trigger? the father who let him do it? the guy in charge of the firing range? the organisers of the event? the local authorities for not specifying little kids shouldn't be playing with automatic fire?
sounds like it was "a tragic accident and nobody was to blame"
yeah right
eric e 1982 nacra 5.2 - 2158 2009 weta tri - 294
| | | Re: great 2nd amendment video
[Re: PTP]
#161959 12/04/08 05:25 PM 12/04/08 05:25 PM |
Joined: Mar 2003 Posts: 263 SC zander
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Posts: 263 SC | Don't get me wrong, I dont think anybody needs a asault weapon, barring the military of course. But that's not what this discussion is about. We are talking about gun laws and the right to keep and bare arms. I have a shotgun, and a handgun. the handgun and the key to the trigger lock on my shotgun are in a safe with a 10 digit combination because I have kids. I don't plan on shooting anyone. But I do enjoy target shooting and believe I have the right to do so. I just don't think it is the gun laws that are the culprit in most cases. More often than not kids are being killed by other kids, with handguns not uzis. We need tighter gang laws, juvenile justice laws, and proper education and better parenting. Do you really think that changing gun laws will effect the gang mentality? Or the violence committed by kids who think it is cool to be a thug? I don't need an autoamtic weapon so don't put me in that category. It is a total lack of responsibilty that puts weapons like those in the hands of kids. I just dont think gun laws are the complete answer, we need to change the mentality of the younger generation. I have noticed a general lack of respect in young people. I blame Jacka**, Youtube, and some pretty violent games that desensitze and glorify this gangsta mentality. I was disrespectful when I was younger but when I got in fights in High school no body whipped out a pistol, and I learnd some good lessons by picking my dumb a** off the ground a couple of times. Problem is these kids aren't willing to lose anymore.
Always borrow money from a pessimist. He won't expect it back.
| | | Re: great 2nd amendment video
[Re: zander]
#161961 12/04/08 05:33 PM 12/04/08 05:33 PM |
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,921 Michigan PTP
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Posts: 2,921 Michigan | Don't get me wrong, I dont think anybody needs a asault weapon, barring the military of course. But that's not what this discussion is about. We are talking about gun laws and the right to keep and bare arms. The problem is that some of the militia members following this thread would say that as soon as they ban automatic weapons completely then the government will be at their door demanding to confiscate their BB guns too. This is not an all or none issue. They shouldn't sell assault weapons for the same reason they should sell tanks. yes, I am aware that there may be only a small difference between an assault rifle and a hunting rifle but a pistol grip and 30 rd mag would qualify as an assault weapon in my book. IMO handguns are fine, obviously rifles (hunting/etc) are fine. I agree with what you are saying and if I owned a handgun then I would lock it up like you do. My wife certainly wouldn't go for a gun in the house and I don't really have the ammo (HAH!) to argue against that.
Last edited by PTP; 12/04/08 05:38 PM.
| | | Re: great 2nd amendment video
[Re: zander]
#161962 12/04/08 05:34 PM 12/04/08 05:34 PM |
Joined: Oct 2001 Posts: 915 Dublin, Ireland Dermot
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Posts: 915 Dublin, Ireland | I'm afraid that my take on it is "Only in America" would there be a gun show, where an 8 year old kid would be handed a loaded usi. The reason so many people are getting killed by guns, is that there are so many guns freely available out there. Take those '98 statistics, how many of those 11,802 homicides would have happened if there wasn't a gun to hand. How many of the 17,432 suicides - if there wasn't a gun to hand, maybe they would have changed their minds before they could find the poison - or maybe they would have been too drunk to make their way up on to the roof. Probably all of the 866 accidental deaths, would still be alive. One last point, how many of the homicides were committed by people who had a gun "for protection" under their bed, or in their purse and only used it to save themselves or their families ? - a very small percent.
Dermot Catapult 265
| | | Re: great 2nd amendment video
[Re: Jake]
#161964 12/04/08 05:45 PM 12/04/08 05:45 PM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 5,582 “an island in the Pacifi... hobie1616
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Posts: 5,582 “an island in the Pacifi... | Saw a bumpersticker today that said, "Too bad closed minds don't come with matching mouths"
Mr. Pot, I'm pleased to introduce Mr. Kettle. Scoooooooooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!! US Sail Level 2 Instructor US Sail Level 3 Coach | | | Re: great 2nd amendment video
[Re: Jake]
#161966 12/04/08 06:17 PM 12/04/08 06:17 PM |
Joined: Mar 2005 Posts: 2,074 Northfield,NH USA bullswan OP
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Posts: 2,074 Northfield,NH USA | this is a great example of many of the gun control issues. An 8 year old was given an UZI at a gun show by experts, he lost control of the recoil, and shot himself in the head - dead. I have a strong feeling that this falls distinctly into an "only in America" category. http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=6393527&page=1 You said it before Jake, Bad parenting. Remember?
The nice part about being a pessimist is that you are constantly being either proven right or pleasantly surprised. - George Will "It's not that liberals aren't smart, it's just that so much of what they know isn't so" -Ronald Reagan | | | Re: great 2nd amendment video
[Re: bullswan]
#161970 12/04/08 06:44 PM 12/04/08 06:44 PM |
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 749 Santa Cruz, CA SurfCityRacing
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Posts: 749 Santa Cruz, CA | Here's a video of right way to teach kids about guns. Since there are so many guns around, it's a good idea to teach kids the right way to handle them in case they encounter one along the line somewhere. When I was 5, I remember my dad holding the 20 GA to my shoulder and we fired a few rounds at an old tea kettle. Seeing the the destruction of the tea pot and feeling the recoil gave me instant respect for guns. With all of the shoot-em-up video games out there, kids don't realize the real destruction guns can cause. Kids need to realize that they're not toys. No man-trip UZI involved in the video below. Condolences to that family. The right way J | | | Re: great 2nd amendment video
[Re: zander]
#161976 12/04/08 08:51 PM 12/04/08 08:51 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | Don't get me wrong, I dont think anybody needs a asault weapon, barring the military of course. But that's not what this discussion is about. We are talking about gun laws and the right to keep and bare arms. I have a shotgun, and a handgun. the handgun and the key to the trigger lock on my shotgun are in a safe with a 10 digit combination because I have kids. I don't plan on shooting anyone. But I do enjoy target shooting and believe I have the right to do so. I just don't think it is the gun laws that are the culprit in most cases. More often than not kids are being killed by other kids, with handguns not uzis. We need tighter gang laws, juvenile justice laws, and proper education and better parenting. Do you really think that changing gun laws will effect the gang mentality? Or the violence committed by kids who think it is cool to be a thug? I don't need an autoamtic weapon so don't put me in that category. It is a total lack of responsibilty that puts weapons like those in the hands of kids. I just dont think gun laws are the complete answer, we need to change the mentality of the younger generation. I have noticed a general lack of respect in young people. I blame Jacka**, Youtube, and some pretty violent games that desensitze and glorify this gangsta mentality. I was disrespectful when I was younger but when I got in fights in High school no body whipped out a pistol, and I learnd some good lessons by picking my dumb a** off the ground a couple of times. Problem is these kids aren't willing to lose anymore. I didn't mean to say we needed more laws. However, it is usually the end result when a society demonstrates the lack of ability to check itself. We need better control and responsibility over our guns - which you have clearly exercised and demonstrated the ability to do so. As you know, I don't own any guns but I have really enjoyed firing your handgun on occasion. I DO, however, standby the statement that it would be far fetched to find in any other foreign country A) a gun show where "everyone gets to fire an assault weapon" B) a father who wishes for his 8 year old to fire an Uzi and C) a trainer who is willing to put a very violent and extremely powerful Uzi in the hands of an 8 year old. Having had a great opportunity to spend 6 years traveling to various corners of the world I can honestly say that it will be difficult to find a country in which these three bad decisions and circumstances could ever align and result in the death of an 8 year old other than right here. The whole gun control problem is, in my opinion, not so much about a lack of laws as it is about our culture and personal responsibility as a nation. I also didn't intend to use the phrase "gun control" to mean the same thing as "firearm restrictive legislation" but more in the sense of our own personal responsibility to control our guns and who uses them.
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