Announcements
New Discussions
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3
Re: new rules and gates [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #164614
01/10/09 10:01 AM
01/10/09 10:01 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Looks like that was more a case of paying attention than knowing the rules.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: new rules and gates [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #164615
01/10/09 11:54 AM
01/10/09 11:54 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
I dont know if it was lack of attention on the leeward port, windward port (looks like there was room to tack but would starboard have missed windward port?), starboard tacker or lack of rules knowlegde.
My thinking is that we have all these rules, and still there are collisions and other infringements. What Gurra wants to try is very simple and would keep everybody focusing on avoiding collisions instead of estimating speeds and headings while analyzing the rules and how they apply before realizing one have put the boat in a really bad situation.

Re: new rules and gates [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #164617
01/10/09 01:04 PM
01/10/09 01:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
When was the last rules seminar did people attend?

When did your club last go over common situations and the rules interpretations?

When was the last protest heard and did the fleet understand the protest.... (or did it devolve that X was an **** for filling a protest...)

The philosophy ... the rules should be simple and clear is universally agreed on.. So why the problem?

Perhaps the space and timing problems presented by sailboat racing require some practice in using the rules.

IMO, the rules and their interpretation are part of the game that makes it interesting to play.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: new rules and gates [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #164618
01/10/09 01:13 PM
01/10/09 01:13 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
"Check the definition of "mark room"."

Scooby, I did, that's what led me to my conclusion (port inside has to go around the port mark without taking extra distance).

Are you trying to suggest something else?

Mike

Re: new rules and gates [Re: Mark Schneider] #164620
01/10/09 01:25 PM
01/10/09 01:25 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

The philosophy ... the rules should be simple and clear is universally agreed on.. So why the problem?


Well, I certainly dont think the rules are simple and clear. there are way to many and you need to be a sailing lawyer to have 100% control on them. For somebody new to the sport, they are bewildering (I still remember how I had to work to acquire an understanding of the rules when I began sailing)

Originally Posted by Mark Schneider

IMO, the rules and their interpretation are part of the game that makes it interesting to play.

That would depend on the game you want to play of course. But the tactics applied are applied becouse the rules open for it, not becouse it is an inherent part of sailing. Almost a theological/evolutional question of course, but a part I definately would like to see changed for what I think is better for our sport.

Re: new rules and gates [Re: brucat] #164624
01/10/09 04:16 PM
01/10/09 04:16 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Originally Posted by brucat
"Check the definition of "mark room"."

Scooby, I did, that's what led me to my conclusion (port inside has to go around the port mark without taking extra distance).

Are you trying to suggest something else?

Mike


YES, The definition is "Room for a boat to sail to the mark, and then too to sail her proper course while at the mark. However, mark room does not include room to tack....."

No mention of anything but proper course; we should all know that proper course is the course we would sail to finish quickest etc...; we also should know that this in wide and out tight.

Seamanship rounding is no longer part of the definition of the "mark room"/"room" concept and so we can make a tactical rounding WITHIN the bounds of the proper course limitations.

Thus we cannot use mark room to sail someone off the side of the course, but we do have the ability to make a tactical rounding.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: new rules and gates [Re: scooby_simon] #164636
01/10/09 10:05 PM
01/10/09 10:05 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
B
brucat Offline
Carpal Tunnel
brucat  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
B

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,969
Thanks for clarifying your interpretation, Scooby.

To make sure I understand, I will sum up what I think you're saying (as simply as possible to help everyone understand):

Inside boat at starboard gate mark (on starboard tack, naturally): All the rights to sail to China before gybing for the mark.

Inside boat at port gate mark (on port tack): Not the right-of-way boat, but if room can be given, rights to sail a tactical rounding around the mark.

First, I hope I have summarized this correctly.

Second, I'd be very interested to ask Dave Perry why he said the change to the new mark room rule is not a game-changer. Since port was limited to seamanlike before, changing to tactical now would certainly seem to be a game-changer.

Mike

Re: new rules and gates [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #164643
01/11/09 06:48 AM
01/11/09 06:48 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 246
Kiel, Germany
Baltic Offline
enthusiast
Baltic  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 246
Kiel, Germany


Well, I certainly dont think the rules are simple and clear. there are way to many and you need to be a sailing lawyer to have 100% control on them. For somebody new to the sport, they are bewildering (I still remember how I had to work to acquire an understanding of the rules when I began sailing)

Rolf, you are so right. I participated in my first F18-regatta last year, and promptly had a crash. Furthermore, participants of the regatta as well as experienced sailors I described the situation to afterwards had different opinions whose fault it was. As a newbie I accepted being the bad guy and paid.
I think regattas are fun, but I am really frightend to participate in another one. I agree with Gilo and would wish to see the different situations in form of diagrams!


F18: C2 / A-Cat: Minelli
Re: new rules and gates [Re: brucat] #164644
01/11/09 07:17 AM
01/11/09 07:17 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Originally Posted by brucat
Inside boat at starboard gate mark (on starboard tack, naturally): All the rights to sail to China before gybing for the mark.



Yes. But it could be interesting as the stbd boat at some point will be claiming mark room and may not claim p-s; they might need mark room to gybe to then round the mark and how much mark room do they need to gybe in?
I'd wager you can sail them to China as long as you do not claim to want mark room; Reading the definition, as soon as you claim mark room you have a burden of proper course, and so this DOES change the game, as in my opinion, you may be forced to gybe to forful your proper course obligation.
(I would be VERY interested in a judges opinion)

Originally Posted by brucat
Inside boat at port gate mark (on port tack): Not the right-of-way boat, but if room can be given, rights to sail a tactical rounding around the mark.

First, I hope I have summarized this correctly.

Second, I'd be very interested to ask Dave Perry why he said the change to the new mark room rule is not a game-changer. Since port was limited to seamanlike before, changing to tactical now would certainly seem to be a game-changer.

Mike


Not really(for this bit), just gives port a little more room to make a proper rounding.

Please let me know what Dave perry thinks. I've been thinking long and hard about this one.....


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: new rules and gates [Re: scooby_simon] #164645
01/11/09 07:41 AM
01/11/09 07:41 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
PTP  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
add another nail to the coffin...

Re: new rules and gates [Re: PTP] #164653
01/11/09 11:03 AM
01/11/09 11:03 AM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Originally Posted by PTP
add another nail to the coffin...


Please explain....


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: new rules and gates [Re: scooby_simon] #164654
01/11/09 11:16 AM
01/11/09 11:16 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
PTP  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
just seems like things get more complicated I guess. puts up more barriers to getting into racing. people much smarter and more experienced than me on this forum get into disagreements over interpretations of the rules all the time. just another reason why someone off the beach wouldn't want to get involved.

Re: new rules and gates [Re: PTP] #164656
01/11/09 12:07 PM
01/11/09 12:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Mugrace72 Offline
old hand
Mugrace72  Offline
old hand

Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 921
Alachua, FL
Originally Posted by PTP
just seems like things get more complicated I guess. puts up more barriers to getting into racing. people much smarter and more experienced than me on this forum get into disagreements over interpretations of the rules all the time. just another reason why someone off the beach wouldn't want to get involved.


This is my observation after being out of sailing for nearly 25 years...there are precious few beginners getting into racing.

We have discussed this dynamic before without any resolution, and I doubt if the trend can be reversed.

In the "old days" racing was a reasonable transition from recreational sailing. For the most part, beginners could participate without being intimidated by the rules and super competitive attitudes of the “old hands”.

Certainly you might get a stern word from a curmudgeon that you offended, but more often than not it was the beginning of a friendship.

Race committees were volunteers, some were good and some were bad. Courses were not always perfect. Racing was as much about sailing the course you were given well as was besting your rivals. The skills to do that required more seamanship, I think, than the cookie-cutter courses we now have.

I used to love the challenge of racing amognst the islands at Miami Yacht Club. Many folks hated it though! I wouldn't want every race to be that way, but some variety makes things interesting.

Now we have professional race committees and protests against them if the course isn’t perfect. We have top sailors who complain unless every race is a W/L, perfectly square to the wind. Races are abandoned when the wind shifts.

This need for perfection is well founded at the highest level events, but it perhaps has a negative effect on so called “friendly” competition at the lower levels.

I refer back to:

Quote
just another reason why someone off the beach wouldn't want to get involved.


Having said that, the evolution of the rules is healthy. However, threats to lynch the PRO, even in jest, tend to exemplify the “win at any cost” and “a perfect course every time” mentality that keeps or drives beginners away from the sport.




Jack Woehrle
Hobie Wave #100, Tiger Shark III
HCA-NA 5022-1
USSailing 654799E
Alachua FL/Put-In-Bay
Re: new rules and gates [Re: Mugrace72] #164658
01/11/09 12:23 PM
01/11/09 12:23 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
we are talking about rule specifics here.

When I started racing 30 years ago; we were turored in the "go around the outside to start with" rules. It served me well.

This thred is delving deep into the rules for a discussion; we are not saying this will happen that much, or is something to be encouraged, just that we, sailors, are discussing the fine details of the rules we race under.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: new rules and gates [Re: PTP] #164659
01/11/09 12:32 PM
01/11/09 12:32 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
F

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
At our level the rules don't make much difference. If you try not to run into me, I'll try not to run into you. The guys that are really concerned about this will be half way up the course by the time you and I get there.

Just in case you were wondering, the weather is about perfect- 70 degrees, wind 10-12.

Re: new rules and gates [Re: fin.] #164660
01/11/09 12:48 PM
01/11/09 12:48 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
PTP  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
Originally Posted by Tikipete
At our level the rules don't make much difference. If you try not to run into me, I'll try not to run into you. The guys that are really concerned about this will be half way up the course by the time you and I get there.

Just in case you were wondering, the weather is about perfect- 70 degrees, wind 10-12.

yeah, I figured it didn't necessarily apply to me smile
But what about when they are lapping you and me?

Yeah, I know, nice weather down there. I keep getting updates from my friend near Pensacola. There is 7 inches (+/-) of snow on the ground here. I know how to make it stop snowing though- buy a snowblower.

Re: new rules and gates [Re: fin.] #164664
01/11/09 01:09 PM
01/11/09 01:09 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Pete, what happens when you meet the fastest boats after they have rounded or, heaven forbid, you are lapped and get to the gate at the same time as they? Not unrealistic in a mixed rating fleet where skill levels and boat speeds vary a lot? I was very uncertain about what to do in situations like that (yes, I have been lapped). Fortunately, the more experienced guys treated us more like an obstacle on the course than competitors and was really nice. If the rules took no more than 10-15 minutes to learn and understand, like in many other sports, my initiation would have been far less stress/angst filled.
I think Jack pointed out some important things in his post.

Simon, I really dont think the discussion here goes around finer points. The downwind rounding is one of the fastest and most complex situations you get on todays course. As the discussion here have showed, it is not very clear and widely understood what the rules say you can and shall do. If it was clear, surely the correct and full answers would come pretty immediately? I have scratched my head over the explanations and implications here as I am certain many others have done. Dont you agree that the rules are rather complex?

It is probably pointless to take the "rule complexity" discussion much farther. But it sure would be nice to have some open but experienced minds look over the rules and form much simplified alternative. Who knows, it might even work very well. Gurra is looking at it, and I know some others also are thinking along the same paths.

Re: new rules and gates [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #164671
01/11/09 02:53 PM
01/11/09 02:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
F
fin. Offline
Carpal Tunnel
fin.  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
F

Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,348
I guess my philosophy is more like golf. I don't compete directly with other boats, rather I just try to sail the best race I can. For me, that means staying out of trouble regardless of my "rights".

Re: new rules and gates [Re: fin.] #164673
01/11/09 03:30 PM
01/11/09 03:30 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Roundings are very much like a huge traffic merge.

All will go smoothly when everyone plays by the rules.... Add a new driver who doesn't drive with intention... or and **** who think getting one car further up the line is winning and the process slows down or fender benders happen.

So long as a new racer knows the basic rules (USSA puts them on a 4 x 7 laminated card for you) and understands when he is expected to round or jibe or go forward... everything goes smoothly. It's a cluster if they suddenly get the idea that they won't race at the mark rounding and don't take their turn.... (just like the new driver in the tunnel merge).

Scooby's point that in the beginning... staying on the outside will keep you out of trouble in the beginning is a great strategy to start ... but you still have to spend some time with the rules and know when to take your turn.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: new rules and gates [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #164674
01/11/09 03:37 PM
01/11/09 03:37 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
scooby_simon Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
scooby_simon  Offline
Hull Flying, Snow Sliding....
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,528
Looking for a Job, I got credi...
Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
Simon, I really dont think the discussion here goes around finer points. The downwind rounding is one of the fastest and most complex situations you get on todays course. As the discussion here have showed, it is not very clear and widely understood what the rules say you can and shall do. If it was clear, surely the correct and full answers would come pretty immediately? I have scratched my head over the explanations and implications here as I am certain many others have done. Dont you agree that the rules are rather complex?

It is probably pointless to take the "rule complexity" discussion much farther. But it sure would be nice to have some open but experienced minds look over the rules and form much simplified alternative. Who knows, it might even work very well. Gurra is looking at it, and I know some others also are thinking along the same paths.


Yes, the rules are complex.

The thing is that the rules do need to be fairly complex as we are racing something (a boat) that cannot go in all directions (i.e. dead upwind) we race on a track that has things on it (other boats / sand banks / shipping etc) and the track itself moves, we cannot change direction quickly. We sail around things (marks), we start from a start line that is not marked, just the ends of it.

If we simply had port and stbd; what happens when one boat is sailing higher than the other; we need a rule for that too; what happens when we need to sail around something like a mark. P-S may be enough, but not always. what happens when we sail towards a sand bank?

Could the rules be made simpler by a complete re-write?

Yes, we could get rid of a lot of the "x rule switches off and Y applies". BUT it would mean a complete change to the structure of the rule set.

It might be nice to have a set of "starting rules; sailing to windward rules; rounding upwind marks etc" BUT how would we document the point one set changes to the other??? It is a complext sport we take part in.

Try sitting down and writing some rules, but just to ensure that each time 2 boats meet on the race course; one has to give way to the other; the simplest might be "biggest has rights, but is that LOA/ LWL / tonnage? etc....

I like the concept of the simplified rules for starting racing, but they are not enough for serious racing.


F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Page 2 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 431 guests, and 84 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Darryl, zorro, CraigJ, PaulEddo2, AUS180
8150 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,404
Posts267,055
Members8,150
Most Online2,167
Dec 19th, 2022
--Advertisement--
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1