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Possible 2010 Tradewinds Course #166046
01/25/09 11:59 AM
01/25/09 11:59 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline OP

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RickWhite  Offline OP

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Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
Take a look at this idea and let me know your thoughts.
Rick

Attached Files
Tradewinds_Course09.gif (370 downloads)

Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Possible 2010 Tradewinds Course [Re: RickWhite] #166048
01/25/09 12:56 PM
01/25/09 12:56 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Rick goofed on the course instructions. For the orange course, after the first time around the "A" mark, it would be windward-leewards between "B" and "C", not between "A" and "C." He will fix that on the diagram after lunch.

Re: Possible 2010 Tradewinds Course [Re: Mary] #166053
01/25/09 01:21 PM
01/25/09 01:21 PM
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fin. Offline
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I don't see that this course is safer. The spin boats will be coming to the finish very "hot". Probably traped out under spin. Imo, the spin boats need to finish to weather, not on a reach.

What if both "B" marks were in close proximity, and constituted a gate for the yellow course? You would have very high closing speeds for both fleets, but you would also have the greatest visibilty for both fleets. Then if the orange "C" was directly downwind of "B" and orange finish was through the original start line you would maintain good separation of the fleets and optimal visibility.

Last edited by Tikipete; 01/25/09 01:31 PM.
Re: Possible 2010 Tradewinds Course [Re: fin.] #166058
01/25/09 02:05 PM
01/25/09 02:05 PM
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brucat Offline
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Hi Rick,

You really, really, really want separate finish lines here.

Plan A: The safest thing to do is set up a mark boat positoned as a finish boat at the orange C mark. That will ensure complete separation and maximize safety for all. EDIT: It is best for the orange C mark to be a gate for this to work correctly, otherwise you'll have a potential for boats to be rounding the mark to port while others are trying to do a downwind finish. Tie the mark boat to the starboard gate mark for the finish line.

Plan B: Have the yellow course boats finish on the starboard side of the signal boat, and the orange boats on the port side. This would help if you're short on power boats. You'll need two people calling the finish. It would help to make the starboard finish pin yellow, and the port one orange. Then you can just tell the sailors to pay attention to their mark colors.

As a separate note, I wouldn't bother with the yellow B mark unless you have an abundance of mark boats, or an extremely steady wind. That's a lot of stuff to move around when the wind shifts.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 01/25/09 02:34 PM.
Re: Possible 2010 Tradewinds Course [Re: brucat] #166062
01/25/09 02:21 PM
01/25/09 02:21 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
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Well, I know I am not crazy about Rick's current course suggestion. It's great to get LOTS of different suggestions and do some brainstorming. Keep it going.


Re: Possible 2010 Tradewinds Course [Re: brucat] #166064
01/25/09 02:37 PM
01/25/09 02:37 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline OP

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Hi Pete,
Perhaps the course does reflect it very well, but the last leg for orange would still be downwind, not a screaming reach. It would be skewed to one side is all. And there would be good visibility for slow and fast boats to see what was coming.., there would be no blind-sided collisions. And they would all be going the same direction.
On your suggestion, Somehow, you lost me. Sorry, but would appreciate an enlightenment.

Brucat,
Keep in mind we are limited in powerboats, powerboat operators, people and marks.
The Yellow course absolutely HAS to have a couple of reaching legs for the H16s and Waves.., The Waves for sure hate W/L courses.., very boring for them.

As Mary said the more feedback the better.
Rick




Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Possible 2010 Tradewinds Course [Re: Mary] #166065
01/25/09 02:38 PM
01/25/09 02:38 PM
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Posts: 3,969
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brucat Offline
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Have faith Mary. Trapezoids can be scary in concept, but are brilliant when executed well in practice. I'm not aware of anything better for separating fleets (other than completely separate courses).

EDIT: Well, there's Digital N, but that's probably only fun for team racing.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 01/25/09 02:40 PM.
Re: Possible 2010 Tradewinds Course [Re: brucat] #166067
01/25/09 02:48 PM
01/25/09 02:48 PM
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brucat Offline
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Understand the boredom issue well, Rick. As a H16 racer, B marks are boring (follow the leader), unless it's blowing like stink.

As for constrained resources, your best bet is Plan B above. Your diagram already shows all the marks you need (just make the yellow finish pin yellow). You just need one set of eyes watching each side of the signal boat.

I misread your orange course, and now that I see it again, it should be:

S-A-B-C-B-C-B-C-F

Yes, that will be a screaming reach finish for orange, but it will help you a ton because everyone will want to finish at the orange pin, giving LOTS more separation from the barn doors coming down to the yellow finish line.

It's also strategically better for the sailors because it keeps the passing lanes open longer (B-C leg then short reach rather than B-F follow-the-leader down the whole course).

Hope this helps.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 01/25/09 02:51 PM.
Re: Possible 2010 Tradewinds Course [Re: RickWhite] #166069
01/25/09 02:54 PM
01/25/09 02:54 PM
Joined: Feb 2006
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fin. Offline
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Disregard, I think Brucat said it better.

Re: Possible 2010 Tradewinds Course [Re: brucat] #166071
01/25/09 03:07 PM
01/25/09 03:07 PM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline OP

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If you ask a Wave sailor if the reaches are boring, you will not get that answer. That is the reason the designated class course calls for two upwind legs, two reaches and one downwind. They hate downwind.

Two finish lines is plausible but I think not necessary. For example if the H16s are tacking downwind they might cross the line on a broad reach on starboard, having rights over the spin boats on port. However, both would be able to see each other and do something about it.
If the H16 was on port on a broad reach they would both be going the same direction (keeping in mind the spin boats would also be on a broad reach, not a screaming reach (diagram is not perfect).
The Waves will probably not even be in the area (either already finished or farther back. But even so, they would be visible to all downwind sailors on broad reaches, spin boats or not.

By having one finish line, we would have the start line ready to go and could get races off faster. Otherwise we would all be waiting for some very slow boat way back having to finish through the orange finish, and then reset the start mark after he finishes. More time consuming.
From my own experiences the worst RCs are the ones that fiddle around forever between races while I am bobbing around. That is why I always try to be a stickler about being prompt to start races and have as little dead time between races.


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Possible 2010 Tradewinds Course [Re: Mary] #166074
01/25/09 03:16 PM
01/25/09 03:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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On the bay the RC's are having good results with a leeward start line. A single C mark above the start line a short A mark for dinghy's and slow cats with a finish boat a bit above the rumb line and then a long A mark for fast cats with an offset hippty hop when you have spin cats.

Courses are Start A C Finish to weather at the short A mark or insert an additional A C lap.

When your fleet finishes, they mosey back to the start area, The Class Flag goes up when all are back to the start area and you have your five minute sequence.

It allows a lot of boats and classes to use the same circle and you are never waiting long.

It keeps the majority of the fleet away from the start area so you don't have any interference with fleets with very different starting styles. EG... lasers think they are keeping clear of a starting cat fleet by reaching back and forth about 20 yards below the line.... The kids especially are stunned to find a cat screaming at them with a minute to go while creeping up to the line through their little parade.

A separate finish line on the other side of the signal boat causes troubles with a fleet finishing while another stages to start.... in the middle of their finish line.

The dinghy's really really want a traditional reach leg since it does not effect their tactical race (as does a vocal segment of the beach cat world.) But you have to move a lot of stuff when the wind changes.

You only need a gate when when one of your OD fleet is pushing 25 or 30 boats. With a single C mark, the fast boats always know the best way around the dinghy's is the outside route and rule become a little easier to follow.

We have a finish position program that records finish positions and times. If you have a wireless card you can send the results to the club for posting before the fleet hits the beach. The program is used for all of the Key West Race circles, Screwpile and Annapolis Race Week. Even if you don't send the results into a scorekeeper... it saves a hell of a lot of time not having to enter the sail numbers.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Possible 2010 Tradewinds Course [Re: RickWhite] #166086
01/25/09 06:41 PM
01/25/09 06:41 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Rick,

I think if you use your existing course but move the start / finish line under the c-marks (outside the course) it will open up a whole lot of water for boats approaching C marks. With the start/finish in the course and lines closed (understandably) they really funneled a lot of opposing traffic around the ends of the lines.


Jake Kohl
Re: Possible 2010 Tradewinds Course [Re: RickWhite] #166181
01/26/09 12:19 PM
01/26/09 12:19 PM
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brucat Offline
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Hi Rick,

I agree and was trying to make that point, but it didn't come across (all fleets want something different sometimes). I like reaches too, but only when there's more than 8 or 10 knots. But, I've watched Waves and 14s race straight downwind in light air, yuck...

I was just giving my best advice for maximum separation. I had a feeling you were concerned about banging out lots of starts, that's a major priority of mine too.

Most of the time I have to force myself to slow down so I don't burn people out. I'm usually finishing stragglers on the water, resetting the line and banging out starts as the last boats are just coming back to the area...

Mike

Re: Possible 2010 Tradewinds Course [Re: brucat] #166184
01/26/09 12:28 PM
01/26/09 12:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
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Could one course round to stb, and the other round to port?

I'm thinking that the real hazard is downwind/reaching legs with boats of different performance characteristics (non-spin/spin). Separating this portion might reduce chances of collisions because upwind the performance differences are less severe and visibility is better.

with B marks on different sides of the course, you could have them going on different sides, and converge only for C-A upwind and start/finish?

Think of two ABC courses (one inside the other like curent layout) with the B marks in different directions. Spin boat course would have a very short B mark (just to move the rhumbline away from the start/finish bouy) to the left (rounding to port), and non-spin boats would have longer B mark off to right (rounding to stb.).

Spin boats start upwind first, which gives non-spin boats time to leave A to stb. and reach to B before spin boats start upwind again...


Jay

Re: Possible 2010 Tradewinds Course [Re: Jake] #166186
01/26/09 12:35 PM
01/26/09 12:35 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France
pepin Offline
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Unless I misunderstand how this would work I have an issue with the last B rounding for the orange course: If you want to go deep to the finish you are basically doing a rounding followed by an immediate jibe, aka up to a 270 around the mark which may cause mayhem with the boats following you: you'll end up on port downwind, raising a spi and dodging traffic...

Last edited by pepin; 01/27/09 10:36 AM.
Re: Possible 2010 Tradewinds Course [Re: pepin] #166204
01/26/09 02:33 PM
01/26/09 02:33 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
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I think Rick's suggestion is good. The only problem with it is that last A mark rounding has to be followed by an immediate jibe. This would cause problems around A mark with traffic coming in on Starboard with Port downwind boats coming right at them.

My suggestion is below and would use the exact same amount of marks at Rick's course.
[Linked Image]


Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: Possible 2010 Tradewinds Course [Re: Mike Hill] #166205
01/26/09 02:49 PM
01/26/09 02:49 PM
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brucat Offline
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Looks like Plan A from my original post.

Mike

Re: Possible 2010 Tradewinds Course [Re: brucat] #166207
01/26/09 02:53 PM
01/26/09 02:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
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Yep, I think exactly the same as brucat's suggestion. I didn't read and comprehend everyone's posts. I certainly had no idea what Waterbug was talking about with port and starboard roundings. That really sounds like a mess.

I also moved B mark to be more square with A. I really hate going on a half downwind/half reach leg with a chute. In high winds it can be a recipe for disaster.

Last edited by Mike Hill; 01/26/09 02:56 PM.

Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: Possible 2010 Tradewinds Course [Re: Mike Hill] #166276
01/27/09 09:06 AM
01/27/09 09:06 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline OP

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RickWhite  Offline OP

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I see the same problem.., good observation. The last windward mark rounding (Orange B) could be pretty ugly.
Back to the drawing board.

At Savannah, the Solings came straight from the C (Orange leeward mark) to the finish on a reach.
That does not sound like a fun finish to me.
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Possible 2010 Tradewinds Course [Re: RickWhite] #166302
01/27/09 10:35 AM
01/27/09 10:35 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
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France
pepin Offline
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Originally Posted by RickWhite
I see the same problem.., good observation. The last windward mark rounding (Orange B) could be pretty ugly.
At the cost of one additional buoy you can put an offset mark on B. End of the problem with the rounding.

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