49-er,

of course everything I say and do can be placed in a framework of perceived unending hate but do you really believe that yourself ? I'm not that kind of monster ! (joke)

From memory the HT class was setup between Ventilo, Bim and Marstrom to produce high performaning catamarans that could race eachother. If anything this is much closer to a formula class (hence the name given to it) then a development class in the order of the original LAC C-class and A-class. It is not just me, that is the way the HT class started halfway throught the 90's.

It may well grow into something else and closely approximatie a pure C, B, and A class rule setup but what's the point in introducing as "slightly smaller" B class format when the B-class is perfectly suited to begin with most resembling the original LAC format. Why, start on just a one-design format in the first year. Wouldn't everybody concur that the LAC was very much about designing a better boat than your competition. Maybe more than half the challenge was better designing. But the choice has been made.

You ask what is so different about the B-class :

Well

-1- It allows the tornado to defend its rep and does not exclude it by definition. Some goes to other boat designs; we all know the F18's are the boats to beat in high winds and the if20's are darn fast in the lighter stuff. Most of the LAC was also about getting the best platform for the expected conditions as the bigger AC is and was.

-2- There is no doubt that a wider boat would be faster in the higher windstrengths. We talking about the LAC here right ? The best of the catamaran design.

-3- B class has no minimum weight; just like the old C-class of the LAC. If Stewarts info is good than the new C-class challenger weights in just above 300 lbs. We already now a B-class cat can be made for as little as 108 kg's (marstrom M20). Weight reduction was a major development in both the A's and C's and contributed heaily to improved speeds. Much more development is promised in this field by example of the M20.

-3- The B-class sets only limits on max sailarea (2 sq. mtr. than the F18HT ex spi) max length and max width. Apart from that everything goes. HT class sets additional limits on which sails to use, mastheight, alignment of the hulls (parallel; no toe in or toe out), it sets a shape limit on the spi and once I even read about a rule which limited where the stays could be fitted to the mast. Now there is even talk of disallowing wingsails, which by the way the current rules allow. But at the time the rules also allow only one design of one specific designer to be used. Great for him, but in all honesty this not comparable to A, B, C class rules and much more comparable to a SMOD class. The last rule pretty much assures no development in the first year, something that we have come to expect from the LAC.

I would like to add the A-cat class itself has removed herself further and further away from the original A-class rules too. Limits on mast cord or disallowing hydrofoils were never part of the original A,B,C,D, class concept and are much more closely related to formula consideration of equaling overall performance to enforce equal changes to sailors. The F18HT does resemble the A-class closely but development in those two classes have closed down considerable and even been knowingly limited by additional limits.

These are just objective considerations which eerybody may check for himself, if you want to call this "disdain" then that is fine with me. Fact of the matter remains that the LAC was characterized by pure and unlimited development and that both the A-cats and F18HT class are increasingly limiting this developement. For reasons of survival I expect both classes to disallow wingsails at some time in the future. This was my point in my original post.

But you are correct that anyone could have expected such a reaction of me to this announcement as these are exactly the same reasons which underlie the rules in the formula class that I'm involved in. To me these issues are undeniable and have been proven over and over again in the past and have been excellent described by researchers like Bethwaite and that guy of NASA in the 1950/60's) whose name I just forgot.

One correction is in order; In the foreseeable future the LAC will be exclusively raced on Javelin 2's. After that mabe the F18HT format although there is some rumour that the committee may choice different platforms per event. Maybe we can even hold the LAC on H16 one time ? If i were the owner of cogito I would refuse to give up the cup unless any new platform decided upon by the committee raced against cogito and has beaten it. I would assume that that is the right of the victor of the last challenge.

Indeed, Stealth marine is designing a F18HT or rather a 3 mtr. wide F18HT alike platform which they will cut down to 2,5 mtr for the US market. Flyer lists his development of a F18 above a F18HT and Boyer is currently designing/building exclusicely Capricorns F18's, Taipans and A-cats.

Naturally this may all change in the future but I expect the chances for this to be very slim when the LAC is limited to only javelin 2's. There is not much that other designers can do to participate in the short term is there. This while they can enter into the F18's class and race in it at any time of their chosing.

But more remarkably co-founder of the F18HT class and 2000 , 2001 EU champion boatyard Ventilo is excluded from this honour in the first year. Their design is older than the javelin 2 by years but still they are not allowed to enter the new LAC challenge. Why ? Why exclude sailor who want to bring their own Ventilo's ? Doesn't Ventilo design and yard deserve as much of the honour and positive feedbacks of the new LAC as the Bimare javelin design and yard ?

Now I may have special relationship with the HT class but with a precedent like this do you really think other builder prefer investing into a HT platform over a F18 platform ?

I think this is highly unlikely.

Anyways, my main point still stands.

"for class specific reasons the development in the new LAC will be actively limited (SMOD, disallowing wingsails, etc) or the old HT formula format will be lost to wingsail introductions and other old C-class technics that will result in significant inequalities among boats."

Please react to the points layout and not merely to me assumed bias in this issue.

With kind regards,

Wouter

Arvel Gentry

Hear Hear ! ! !
I wish I could have said it as well as Wouter did.
I don't think there will be any winners with this format.

I just noticed in the press release that it says Bimare Jav 2's will be provided for the event in 2004, as well as this year. This is another correction that should be noted for my story at the beginning of this thread. Originally, I had been told that it would be open to all F-18HT's after this year.

Of course, the way the Deed of Gift is worded the Trustees are at liberty to decide what class will be used for the ICCT, so they are likely to be getting a lot of mail with other suggestions.

Come on you think millions of people are going to tune in to see two 18 ft cats match racing? How is this event going to be any different than the Alter cup or something becides the match racing part. I agree this is dumbing down not a step forward. I of all people do like the high price of some sailing events and efforts but heck the Americas is suppose to be the best against the best, including their technology.

The Worrell 1000 I will watch on TV but not two 18 ft beach cats match racing, doesn't seem exciting to me.

As the designer of the new Australian challenger for the Little America's I was bitterly disappointed with the decision of the trustees to reject our challenge, as was the rest of the team. We have been working steadily for approximately two years to get to the stage where we could challenge. During this time we kept the trustees up to speed with our progress. The first we heard about this new event was after our challenge was rejected. We certainly were not encouraged in any way by the trustees and this may be part of the reason why you have not seen any activity since 1996.

The international catamaran challenge trophy is about who can build the fastest boat on the planet. It is not about who can stitch up the best sponsorship deal to sell one design cats. If the promoters of this new event don't have metal to defend the ICCT then they should have forfeited the trophy and sent it to Perth in the mail.

Despite what these blokes think they don't "own" the Little America's Cup the hold it in trust for all the world's sailors. This move is a travesty and a betrayal of the heritage of the event.

It is to the great credit of Steve Clark and the Cogito team that they have decided to defend the their trophy

Damien Smith

Project Naval Architect
Australian Catamaran challenge

I, Mary Wells, am just transferring this message over to this forum and thread from the Old Forum. He was not able to post on this forum himself.

Posted by Nathan from 64.12.96.134 on March 09, 19103 at 08:10:11:

In Reply to: high performance yes but not HT posted by Stewart on March 09, 19103 at 07:42:12:

I have not been able to post to the new forum, despite getting a user name and password, so I am posting my response to "Sail S" here. Here goes-


Sail-S,

Having been in the Biz for 20 years, I have to disagree with you about the appeal of the smaller, more manuverable HT cats to the TV market. I have viewed clips of these cats racing around the cans and WOW they are exciting! The 18 Skiffs and the 49ers have nothing on these guys. Add some of the World's best cat sailors going after the cup, representing their various countries and you have a media event that is better than you can imagine.

The sporty, darty HTs sailed 20 of the World's best WILL be a lot more entertaining to watch than than two 25 footers sailed by ?????.

Besides, several of the former LAC have been won by default or due to mechanical failure of one of the two fragile C-Class Cats. If one broke, then it would only leave one other to race. Not much fun to watch. The last LAC, won by Steve Clark, ended this way. The Aussie cat flipped and broke a wing, never recovering. They had to use an older heavier wing and were never in the game. BORING! BORING! SNOOZE! NO TV APPEAL!

The Trustees of The Little America's Cup have made a brillant decision. Bravo

Yes I agree with Wouter and others who have voiced their opinion. A large part of LAC is the design aspect of the event. Custom design and build the fastest cat you can, and then see who is the fastest.

Also, the AC is an event with a very high cost of entry. Its an event that showcases best that unlimited money can buy, and that is partially why it is so popular. The "Glamour" aspect of the race is extremely important. If I can walk into a shop and buy an 18ht then I will be out sailing myself rather than watch.

And, the best sailors will still get to sail as crew.

The event is a great place to prove alternate technologies such as wing masts, foils etc, and these improvements could result in faster beach cats for us.

Can someone post the names / email addresses of the LAC organisers so that we can send them a cheery note on how we feel?
Dave

Perhaps reduce capital further, reference URL below:

http://www.microsail.com/f3photos.html

Great idea for another regatta. Those photos show that it doesn't matter how small the boats are -- the important thing is to have BIG camera lenses so the boats look big in photos and on TV. Don't they do that in the movies?

Anyway, something else: I got the impression from somewhere that after the first two years of using stock boats, the idea is that individual designers and builders could come up with new boats specifically for the LAC, designed within the F-18HT formula. I don't know whether that makes it more appealing from a development standpoint or not.

Mary I have to disagree when it comes to the point of people viewing this event as exciting to watch. I have several World videos and the Worrell 1000 videos and I have let people watch it and less than half way through they get bored (except for one). You see we are into it and is exciting for us but not for the masses. Now get a few formula 40 boats flying across the water and watch them stick to the TV. I just disagree and that is ok, yet I wish the event success.

I thought the same thing Mary. Maybe I got it from your earlier post, but I thought the HT's were just a way of jump starting the life back into this event. If that is the case , then I am glad to see this event back, but I think the big boys and their cutting edge designs should prevail from there on.

Don

SaiI-s, I think you are replying to the wrong person here. I have never said or even thought that sailboat racing is exciting to watch. I would rather lie in a hammock and watch rocks erode.

Despite all the wonderful efforts by people like Gary Jobson to make the sport more exciting and interesting and understandable from a spectator viewpoint, they haven't yet gotten me hooked on it.

The ONLY time I have ever found sailboat racing exciting as a spectator was when Rick and I were on our own boat up watching the Formula 40 races in Miami one time during that pro series. We were very close to the action (maybe too close), and it was absolutely spectacular!

It is impossible to capture the sense of power and speed of the boats on television. You have to be in the middle of it to FEEL it, not just see it.

It reminded me of the one polo match I went to a long time ago. We were sitting right on the sidelines of the grassy polo field, and you could feel the earth shaking from the pounding of the horses' hoofs, and you were close enough to see the sweat on their bodies and see the foam frothing from their mouths, and hear the lock "crack" of mallets hitting the ball.

That's kind of what it was like being in the middle of that Formula 40 race -- like a total sensory experience that helped you to relate on some more primitive, basic level.

But no matter how big the boats are, it just does not come across on TV.

And match racing? Only two boats? Sorry. I can't get into it. Monkey-in-the-Middle would be a lot more fun to watch. So as far as match racing is concerned, it makes absolutely no difference to me whether it is on Formula 40's or C-Class cats or Hobie Waves. It is just a tactical and strategic dance on the water. What does it matter what boats? It is all about sailing skill on two boats that are as equally matched as possible.

Seems like this whole debate is between those who think the Little America's Cup should be about the country that can design the best boat and those who think it should be about the country that has the best sailor.

Interesting.

Don,
Whatever the ultimate goal is for the LAC, at least the Trustees have stirred up a hornets' nest of interest about it, and that can only be good.

C CLASS CATAMARAN RACE IN 2004

The Australian Catamaran Challenge syndicate has issued a challenge for the International Catamaran Challenge Trophy (also known as the Little America's Cup) but this has been rejected by the trustees in favor of a factory backed event.

"We were bitterly disappointed," says syndicate coordinator Ian Jenkins, "The Little America's Cup was always about the building most efficient and technologically advanced boats, to sail in one-design boats really misses the point. The C Class Catamaran has represented the pinnacle of sailing technology for the past 40 years featuring revolutionary wing sails."

"Our boat is nearing completion in Fremantle, Western Australia and we will be ready to race next year," says Ian.

Steve Clark and the Cogito team, the previous winners of the Little America's Cup, have recently met with Ian Jenkins and have accepted a challenge from the Australian syndicate. It is anticipated that the new event will be held in Rhode Island in September 2004. More details of the new event will be released as soon as arrangements can be made.




Contact: Damien Smith
Australian Catamaran Challenge
Project Naval Architect
Telephone - +61 8 9434 6752
Email - pugwash@eisa.net.au