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Re: Rules Question [Re: John Williams] #176036
04/24/09 05:16 PM
04/24/09 05:16 PM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by John Williams
... you simply aren't allowed to use propulsion to get yourself around the course. I'm not suggesting one would gain forward motion by pushing on the anchor rode, but it would move the mark. In moving the mark, the skipper isn't using the sails as the sole propulsion. No different than ooching. By moving the mark, you have effectively changed the layline that you would have needed to have properly rounded.


Propulsion (RRS 42) is an interesting argument, but I don't really think it would apply in this case. The rule prohibits moving "a boat", not another object (e.g. mark). The ISAF interpretations state that any action that moves the boat in any direction with the force of one stroke of a paddle consitutes propulsion. pushing a small mark by its anchor line probably has much less force on a boat than one stroke of a paddle. A force that great would most likely cause the mark to touch whatever the crew member is pushing with.

I think RRS 2 "Fair Sailing" is a better argument, although it is still a gray area. It states
Quote
A boat...shall compete in compliance with recognized principles of sportsmanship and fair play. A boat may be penalized under this rule only if it is clearly established that these principles have been violated...

While some may believe that pushing the anchor line (thus moving the mark) is unsportsmanlike, I'm not sure that it "clearly violates" the principle of fair play.

I suspect that there would be a lot of variation on this call from protest committee to protest committee.

Regards,
Eric

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Re: Rules Question [Re: Mugrace72] #176037
04/24/09 05:27 PM
04/24/09 05:27 PM
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by Mugrace72
Since you are in dead calm, I would think it reasonable to do your turn when the wind fills in.

It may be reasonable, but might not be legal. RRS 42.2 "One-Turn and Two-Turns Penalities" states (emphasis mine):
Quote
After getting well clear...as soon after the incident as possible, a boat takes a ... penality by promptly making the required number of turns...

I once asked an international judge to clarify "promptly" for me, and he said to substitute the words "without delay".

Now, if the boat is truly becalmed such that it is not possible to get "well clear", then it's okay to wait. She must, however, take her penality as soon as possible when the wind allows.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Rules Question [Re: Isotope235] #176040
04/24/09 05:32 PM
04/24/09 05:32 PM
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Jake Offline
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Also in this scenario, when the penalty happens at a windward mark, it is to your advantage to continue sailing close hauled (or reaching slightly) for a short distance to get away from where the boats are turning and then do your tack and gybe. The penalty turn consists of a tack and a gybe - not 360 degrees. So since you need to turn downwind anyway, you can actually get away with a 270 if your foul occurred at the top of the course.


Jake Kohl
Re: Rules Question [Re: TEAMVMG] #176041
04/24/09 05:38 PM
04/24/09 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by TEAMVMG
You can snagg your daggerboard or rudder on the rope and tow the bloody thing halfway to the windward mark as long as the bouy itself does not touch you.

Inadvertently snagging an anchor line and dragging a mark is a far cry from swimming underwater and deliberately moving it away from your boat to avoid contact. The first is accidental and cannot reasonably help you. The second seems (at least to me) to be an advantage gained unfairly.

Regards,
Eric

Re: Rules Question [Re: Isotope235] #176042
04/24/09 05:38 PM
04/24/09 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by Rhino1302
In really light air races, my crew jumps off the boat right after we clear the start line, and then swims back across the line and bobs there in the water waiting for me to pick him up right before the finish.

You gotta finish with the crew you start with, but nothing says you gotta drag them around the entire race course!


Sorry, RRS 47.2 does say exactly that:
Quote
No person on board shall intentionally leave, except when ill or injured, or to help a person or vessel in danger, or to swim. A person leaving the boat by accident or to swim shall be back on board before the boat continues in the race.


Regards,
Eric


Rats! I knew there had to be a catch on that one.

Re: Rules Question [Re: Jake] #176044
04/24/09 05:50 PM
04/24/09 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Jake
Also in this scenario, when the penalty happens at a windward mark, it is to your advantage to continue sailing close hauled (or reaching slightly) for a short distance to get away from where the boats are turning and then do your tack and gybe. The penalty turn consists of a tack and a gybe - not 360 degrees. So since you need to turn downwind anyway, you can actually get away with a 270 if your foul occurred at the top of the course.

Absolutely correct (and very good advice)! The faster you can pull off your turn(s), the better.

Continuing to sail upwind (or reaching) to get clear satisfies the "getting well clear...as soon as possible" part of RRS 44.2. Tacking and gybing in the same direction promptly satisfies turn portion. Nothing says the turn has to be a full 360 degrees (in fact, it may be less than 270 degrees). For what it's worth, that was true even when the rules were titled "360/720 Degree Penalty". Confusion over this issue is why the rules were renamed to "One/Two-Turns Penalty".

Regards,
Eric

Re: Rules Question [Re: Isotope235] #176045
04/24/09 05:58 PM
04/24/09 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by Jake
Also in this scenario, when the penalty happens at a windward mark, it is to your advantage to continue sailing close hauled (or reaching slightly) for a short distance to get away from where the boats are turning and then do your tack and gybe. The penalty turn consists of a tack and a gybe - not 360 degrees. So since you need to turn downwind anyway, you can actually get away with a 270 if your foul occurred at the top of the course.

Absolutely correct (and very good advice)! The faster you can pull off your turn(s), the better.

Continuing to sail upwind (or reaching) to get clear satisfies the "getting well clear...as soon as possible" part of RRS 44.2. Tacking and gybing in the same direction promptly satisfies turn portion. Nothing says the turn has to be a full 360 degrees (in fact, it may be less than 270 degrees). For what it's worth, that was true even when the rules were titled "360/720 Degree Penalty". Confusion over this issue is why the rules were renamed to "One/Two-Turns Penalty".

Regards,
Eric


So, in this same scenario, I can point the boat at the finish line, say "Tacking!" and push the main from port to starboard and then "Jibe Ho!" and push the main from starboard to port, and be exonerated? All while the nose is still pointed directly at the finish line?

Remember, there's no wind. I mean really no wind. How do you tell a tack from a jibe when there's no wind?

Re: Rules Question [Re: Rhino1302] #176053
04/24/09 07:26 PM
04/24/09 07:26 PM
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St Petersburg FL
Robi Offline
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A tack and gybe involves your bows moving around as well, not just your sails.

IMO it seems like you are trying to find loop holes and cheat, not cool and if you are ever taken to the room you will lose, bad.

Re: Rules Question [Re: Robi] #176231
04/27/09 10:41 AM
04/27/09 10:41 AM
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EDIT: I deleted my post questioning the validity of a normal tack counting as part of a penalty.

This is covered by Case 108 (ISAF website). It starts with 44.1(b) as I mentioned above (if you gained an advantage by breaking a rule, in this case touching the mark, you must retire). Also, as stated by others above, a tack at the weather mark may be counted as one of the two-turns.

Personally, I don't see how this can be construed as a "penalty" but that's not what the rule gods have come up with.

Mike

Last edited by brucat; 04/27/09 11:15 AM. Reason: I goofed
Re: Rules Question [Re: Robi] #176232
04/27/09 11:07 AM
04/27/09 11:07 AM
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Reno NV
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Rhino1302 Offline OP
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Thanks for assuming the worst, Robi.

I'd be very surprised if anyone in the same sucky situation didn't think about "loopholes" to get out of it. Not because you want to do better in the race, but because you don't want to sit out there bobbing in the hot sun for an extra 15 minutes while you do an agonizingly slow circle.

I guess the real sportsmen all give up wind the wind dies, so they never have to deal with these sorts of situations.

Re: Rules Question [Re: brucat] #176233
04/27/09 11:10 AM
04/27/09 11:10 AM
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Santa Cruz, CA
SurfCityRacing Offline
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Read over the SI's. There's probably a minimum wind requirement for racing.


Re: Rules Question [Re: SurfCityRacing] #176341
04/28/09 09:58 AM
04/28/09 09:58 AM
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california
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Rhino did this happen at Black Butte?


Richard Vilvens
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Re: Rules Question [Re: F-18 5150] #176353
04/28/09 12:51 PM
04/28/09 12:51 PM
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Reno NV
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Rhino1302 Offline OP
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Yeah. We did get good wind for three of five races this year though, and only the last one was an absolute creeper. The earlier date probably helped.

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