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Relative Talent at the Tybee and the A-Cat Nationals #177975
05/12/09 02:36 PM
05/12/09 02:36 PM
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49er Offline OP
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Just pondering?????

How do Mischa H, Steve Lohmayer, JC, and the rest of the Tybee racers match up against Smyth, Guck, Struble, Melvin, the Glasers and the A-Cat National crowd?

Around the cans? Down the beach?

Most of both groups have done both and there is a history of the head to head match ups.

I look forward to the opinions.


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Re: Relative Talent at the Tybee and the A-Cat Nationals [Re: 49er] #177982
05/12/09 03:22 PM
05/12/09 03:22 PM
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Steve B Offline
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Wow, way to stir the mud!

IMHO, the A-Catters are in their own league regardless of type of course. Regarding distance racing,

Let's see, put Smyth and Struble on the same boat for the Tybee....wait they have already done the Worrell together and smashed everyone. I would bet that this dynamic duo would rule the T-500 as well.

Around the bouys......

Guck outshown the top T-500 talent (??Mischa??)on the Tornado in Europe a couple years ago. I think that Struble placed on top of Mischa at the Tornado Worlds a few years back, but other than that I am not sure of much direct competition between the Mischa and the A-Catters. There doesn't to seem to be any head to head match ups recently, however. Regardless, Mischa is an excellent sailor both in distance racing and course racing.

After Mischa I think that there is a pretty step drop in talent level at the T-500. Steve L has been around for a while and is a top distance guy, but doesn't fair as well at the bouy races. JC is another talented sailor, but not at Smyth, Guck, Melvin, the Glassers, nor Struble's level. The "honorable mention sailors" (dare I say "second tier" sailors) at the A-Cat Nationals is a cut above their T-500 peers. Hodges, Hall, Cogan, Oliver, Arends.........the list goes on and on....

The A-Catters have dozens (hundreds)of World and National titles to their credit. How about the T-500 guys? Let us know?

Interesting question...............

Re: Relative Talent at the Tybee and the A-Cat Nationals [Re: Steve B] #177983
05/12/09 03:24 PM
05/12/09 03:24 PM
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pgp Offline
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smile I can't wait!


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Relative Talent at the Tybee and the A-Cat Nationals [Re: 49er] #177997
05/12/09 06:56 PM
05/12/09 06:56 PM
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bvining Offline
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no contest,

A cat

Re: Relative Talent at the Tybee and the A-Cat Nationals [Re: bvining] #178010
05/12/09 09:40 PM
05/12/09 09:40 PM
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Wouter Offline
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I actually think it is time to put some of the A skippers on the F18 worlds entry listing.

Set them up for some nice cold perspective.

There is only one guy that has been succesful in both the A-cat and F18/Tornado class at the same time and that is Glenn Ashby. And many have seen him work harder for his wins in the F18 and Tornado classes then in the A-cat worlds he participated in. Point in case, he was 3rd in this years 160 boat F18 fleet at Carnac Eurocat 2009.

About Smyth I don't think there is much of an argument, but I'm not sure Matt Strubble will survive in the European catamaran fleets. Winning the North American nationals is an achivement, but it is not on a par with the European title in say the F18's or an Aussie title with Bundock, Booth, Brewin and Ashby on the starting line.

I also think that people are not giving JC enough credit. He came over last year and received his "perspective". He admitted so himself. But he has also been making steady improvements and is undoubtably a better sailor now then he was two years ago when he was already pretty dominant in the US scene.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Relative Talent at the Tybee and the A-Cat Nationals [Re: Wouter] #178015
05/12/09 10:27 PM
05/12/09 10:27 PM
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Ashby only beat US sailor Lars Guck by 2 points at the 2007 A-Class WC. Matt Struble sailed a brief Tornado campaign and in his first year of sailing finished 13th out of 70 boats at the Tornado European Championship. Oh and Matt is also a two time DN Iceboat World Champion. The A-Class WC is on par competition wise with the F-18 WC.

Re: Relative Talent at the Tybee and the A-Cat Nationals [Re: Acat230] #178028
05/13/09 12:30 AM
05/13/09 12:30 AM
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taipanfc Offline
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The usual spray by Wouter. The usual, nothing to see here, blah blah blah...

Re: Relative Talent at the Tybee and the A-Cat Nationals [Re: taipanfc] #178036
05/13/09 06:08 AM
05/13/09 06:08 AM
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waynemarlow Offline
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At lease he offered a reasoned opinion which is more than what I can say about your last post, Tiapanfc if you aren't prepared to back it up with your own reasoned opinion then why write your usual negative response, go Wout. tired

Re: Relative Talent at the Tybee and the A-Cat Nationals [Re: Wouter] #178040
05/13/09 06:35 AM
05/13/09 06:35 AM
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pgp Offline
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Originally Posted by Wouter


. . . I also think that people are not giving JC enough credit. Wouter
He finished about 1 minute behind Mischa on day one. Of course there was the OCS penalty.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Relative Talent at the Tybee and the A-Cat Nationals [Re: waynemarlow] #178044
05/13/09 06:46 AM
05/13/09 06:46 AM
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Steve B Offline
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I think that Wouter got off the original subject, that is, how do you compare the relative talent of the A-Cat Nationals and the Tybee-500?

Ashby is not in either race. Ashby is a pro and his livelyhood is all about sailing. This type of sailor in the US small catsailor ranks is not currently found. Ashby is an incredible sailor, especially on the A-Cat. Besides, Ashby is the CREW on the F-18 and Tornado teams, isn't he?

Agreed-Smyth is a legend and one of our last "pro" catsailors. Struble on the other hand is not a pro sailor, but I think he is a mechanical engineer working in the automotive industry. He has won the World Championship in the DN iceboats twice in a row. Wasn't one of his wins at DN WCs in Europe? Seen him sail-he is definately on level with Smyth. ENOUNGH SAID.

Back to the original question-Higher talent level at A-Cat NAs or T-500?

Mischa, Mike Eason, Chris Green, Mike Krantz, Steve Lohmeyer, and John Casey VERSES Randy Smyth, Matt Struble, Pete Melvin, Lars Guck, Bob Hodges, and Jay/Pease Glasser. How would you handicap this?




Re: Relative Talent at the Tybee and the A-Cat Nationals [Re: waynemarlow] #178045
05/13/09 06:56 AM
05/13/09 06:56 AM
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Originally Posted by waynemarlow
At lease he offered a reasoned opinion which is more than what I can say about your last post, Tiapanfc if you aren't prepared to back it up with your own reasoned opinion then why write your usual negative response, go Wout. tired


Because to be honest, it is just a pissing contest. The talented sailors always rise to the top, no whatever class they are in. Seems to me to be kind of a schoolyard "baseball" card debate.

Re: Relative Talent at the Tybee and the A-Cat Nationals [Re: taipanfc] #178046
05/13/09 07:11 AM
05/13/09 07:11 AM
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pgp Offline
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Originally Posted by taipanfc
. . . Seems to me to be kind of a schoolyard "baseball" card debate.


Which could be fun in and of itself!

When Michael Jordan left basketball for baseball, I assumed he would excell. It didn't happen, at times he even looked foolish.

Around the cans, you have a chance to rest between races. Not so with the Tybee.

Imo, the two disciplines are too different to make a flat statement.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Relative Talent at the Tybee and the A-Cat Nationals [Re: Steve B] #178050
05/13/09 08:23 AM
05/13/09 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve B


Besides, Ashby is the CREW on the F-18 and Tornado teams, isn't he?



It takes every bit as much talent to crew on a Tornado or an F18 as it does to helm. If the crew is not at least as good as the helm they’re holding the team back (not that there’s anything wrong with that).

Re: Relative Talent at the Tybee and the A-Cat Nationals [Re: rhodysail] #178051
05/13/09 08:30 AM
05/13/09 08:30 AM
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The next F18 Worlds Ashby is going to helm, should be interesting to see how that turns out.
He will probably still be in the top-5 or something.

Re: Relative Talent at the Tybee and the A-Cat Nationals [Re: Acat230] #178052
05/13/09 08:32 AM
05/13/09 08:32 AM
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Wouter Offline
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mr Acat230,

Do you read your own comments ?

Quote

Ashby only beat US sailor Lars Guck by 2 points at the 2007 A-Class WC.



So Ashby won the A-cat worlds, but comes in 3rd with Bundy at the helm in Eurocat 2009 which is not even a F18 championship race.


Quote

Matt Struble sailed a brief Tornado campaign and in his first year of sailing finished 13th out of 70 boats at the Tornado European Championship.



So the answer is in. Even back in the day when Matt was full-on campaigning on the Tornado, he was outside the top 10 in the EU Tornado fleet. No disrespect to Matt, but it does show that a certain difference in competitiveness is to be found between US and EU racing fleets. Now try a 150+ F18 fleet where basically the who-is-who of Tornado sailing are participating in as well. There is a good change then that he'll will be outside the top 20.


Quote

Oh and Matt is also a two time DN Iceboat World Champion


I rest my case.


Quote

The A-Class WC is on par competition wise with the F-18 WC.


That is something else then the earlier claim made by Bvinning that there is "no contest, A-cat". Hinting the US A-cat class was superior in skill. Or the other poster who suggested that (and I quote) "second-tier" guys like Tony Arends, Ben Hall, Peter Cogan and Tracy Oliver are still one level up from the guys in the Tybee-500.

I was of course responding to those posts.

I'm convinced reality is just a tad different.


Fact is, of course, that the Tybee-500 attracts a different set of sailors and it is only just attracting some of bigger names of EU/F18 sailing. The real difference between this years Tybee and the US national A-cat fleet is the depth of talent. Here the Tybee is still lacking. But then again the Tybee is an out-of-the-ordinary event rather then a national fleet. Apples and Oranges.

WOuter

Last edited by Wouter; 05/13/09 08:41 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Relative Talent at the Tybee and the A-Cat Nationals [Re: rhodysail] #178053
05/13/09 08:38 AM
05/13/09 08:38 AM
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Its kind of an apples and oranges comparison as Todd noted, a team vs one up, and yes Wouter got off track, the original question was "how does the sailing talent at the Acat NA's stack up against the Tybee500."

If you look at the total list of sailors at both events the Acat Na's has more medals, and championships and a deeper bench.

Not to take anything away from the Tybee sailors, the Tybee is an amazing race, and its way tougher than sailing a cuple of bouy races on an acat. Its on my list.



Re: Relative Talent at the Tybee and the A-Cat Nationals [Re: Wouter] #178070
05/13/09 10:39 AM
05/13/09 10:39 AM
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bvining Offline
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Wouter
The original question was 2009 US Acat NA's vs 2009 US Tybee500 sailors.

You turned this into F18 US vs F18 Europe, which is not what we were discussing.

If you look at the total number of championships, medals, etc on the Acat fleet it a way longer list than the Tybee list, simple - 2009 Acat NA sailors have more, I think that Randy has more by himself. Acat fleet easily wins this rather silly arguement.

Wouter, Why dont you start your own thread on your other rather silly argument, F18 Europe vs F18 USA.

Re: Relative Talent at the Tybee and the A-Cat Nationals [Re: bvining] #178074
05/13/09 11:08 AM
05/13/09 11:08 AM
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What are the ages, and years sailing cats for each of these competitors? I don't know how old JC is, but Trey Brown is young enough, as are many in the Tybee fleet, to be my son. The A Catters seem to be dominated by guys from my generation, or older.

Re: Relative Talent at the Tybee and the A-Cat Nationals [Re: Brian_Mc] #178076
05/13/09 11:32 AM
05/13/09 11:32 AM

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Originally Posted by Brian_Mc
What are the ages, and years sailing cats for each of these competitors? I don't know how old JC is, but Trey Brown is young enough, as are many in the Tybee fleet, to be my son. The A Catters seem to be dominated by guys from my generation, or older.


Very true!
A few years back, during the Harken races many of the A-skippers were .... very... "experienced"

It was wild to watch a few 70+ guys lift their mast off the beam solo.... i had never been up close to an A-cat before then and had to manually reel my jaw back on my face.

I asked if i could feel the mast and he said... "it will cost you 20grand, cause after you feel it.. you will want to buy one"

i feel i would break that cat in 1/2 within a week...

I have sailed an A cat since and it was neat to be on such a light, responsive cat

Re: Relative Talent at the Tybee and the A-Cat Nationals [Re: bvining] #178080
05/13/09 12:28 PM
05/13/09 12:28 PM
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Wouter Offline
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Bill,

Quote

The original question was 2009 US Acat NA's vs 2009 US Tybee500 sailors.



I understand that.

But that still doesn't make the following comment truthful.

"The "honorable mention sailors" (dare I say "second tier" sailors) at the A-Cat Nationals is a cut above their T-500 peers. Hodges, Hall, Cogan, Oliver, Arends.........the list goes on and on...."


I would rather claim that theses names are at best on a par with Heemskerk and JC. But we don't really known from real race data as they pretty much stick to A-cat racing only. We do know however that Ashby has beaten the lot of them many times over and is finding it alot harder to win those class races where sailors like Mischa have made a name for themselves. That is the reason for dragging in the US vs EU tangent.

Smyth may have a long list of international championships of various multihull classes under his belt but Strubble and Melvin are much less celebrated with respect to cat racing. Hell, just look over Melvins record shows this as his major achievements ;

2005 A-cat world champ
1997 A-cat world champ
1996 2nd at F18 European champs (F18 class was only formed in 1994 and was a very young class at the time)
1993 4th Tornado worlds
1988 14th Olympic games Tornado


Refering to the A-cat results is like bootstrapping yourself out of quicksand. You can't proof the skill level is high (as compared to other classes) in the A-cat class because former A-cat champions are sailing in it. In that case my own club races are of very high level as the F16 world champion is participating in those. So what are we left with is :

A pretty unconclusive 2nd at the (very young) F18 Europeans in 1996
A 14th at the Olympics in Korea (out of 20 in total)

That leaves a 4th place at the 1993 Tornado worlds. I think Mischa did something like that at one time as well. But he is still young and may do better in the future, same for JC.


So yeah, Smyth and the Glasers I'll give you that. Melvin is probably somewhere between the two fleets, but I'm personally not convinced that Strubble, Guck, Cogan, Arends, etc are a "cut above the Tybee sailors" as quoted. Truly and honestly, I think that if we place them on a par with Heemskerk and JC that we give them more then enough benefit of the doubt.

And personally I don't include any DN iceboating championships when comparing soft water sailing skills between sailors. I do landyachting myself (very comparable) and it is a different sport altogether.


Personally, I think it is time some of the "A-cat only" gods do some cross training in other cataraman classes if they want to proof their superiority. Ashby did and found it alot more challenging outside of the A-cat framework then inside of it. Which may well also explain why non A-cat based sailors have shorter lists of past championships.

That was my point.


And before anybody tries that other tangent. Yes I do also do judge "my own class" that way. The F16 champ of 2007 was only about 50th at the A-cat worlds.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 05/13/09 12:39 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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